But more actions are required to kill raid mobs, which is the point. 6 players APM vs 24 players APM. There isn't 18 idle players in a raid. Ever. They may be the same approximate APM pace by each individual players standard but 18-24 are needed for raid mobs where as 6 players no matter how good they are, can not make up for the missing 12-18 players contributing their APM. 6 players will never take down a high end raid mob at this point in time. Period. No matter which way you look at it, the more players that are required to be involved, 9 times out of 10, the difficulty requires this amount and a 6 man group could not even come close to accomplishing the same feat. So why should a group of 6 be "entitled" to the same quality loot and rewards? I do not understand some players way of thinking on these matters, it is pretty straight forward in my mind. If you want the best loot in game, work for it, better yourself, advance your character in gear and weapons, spend time learning and progressing through end game and anyone can achieve the best... If some people are casual and don't have enough time spare, so what? they can still do it, it will just take longer. There is no reason that anyone in game shouldn't be able to obtain the best gear and weapons if they put the effort in like those of us that already have those items. I don't care if VG comes out with 5 new expansion packs and becomes the worlds best MMORPG ever! If you hand out top quality items and gear without the players doing anything to earn it, it sends the wrong message to everyone and ultimately will ruin the game for everyone. Raid>Group>Solo.
I've brought up some of my viewpoints on the whole Solo<Group<Raid paradigm. On the whole I think where it fails and inevitably breaks a system is the assumption that those tiers of gear have to be better statistically. That their core numbers need to be more than the previous 'tier's core numbers. The reason I see this as an issue is two-fold. 1) It trivializes any sort of content below that particular 'tier'. You see this more so in say EQ2 than you do here. EQ2 has had full raids (from two group up to four) right from early levels. A raiding force can pretty easily focus on pure raiding from about level 20 to end-game and not have to do a whole lot of solo or grouping with the exception of the odd flagging needing to be done (flagging which gets removed from older content as newer comes out). So in a game like EQ2 where you have raiding as prevalent and separate as it is, those players are able to steamroll solo and group content by sheer numerical supremacy. I personally don't think this could be a good thing. It effectively lowers the amount of challenging content you have available to you. It makes the game easier, and I personally find that takes the fun out of it. 2) It creates a different standard to judge future content by. This is the problem we see here in Vanguard more than the first point. It's well known that current content is designed around certain thresholds of gear, and that unless you have this quality you are simply not able to progress. PotA has been the glaring example in that it was designed for end-game players. People who had, if not completed, done a large portion of APW. While I personally welcomed the more variety in mob strategies put into place, things you didn't really see in group play but you did see in raid encounters, the increased output of the mobs were above what most people could accomplish without some very good gear, or a couple of overgeared people assisting and walking you through it. While it has been seen that you can, with a great deal of effort and knowing the methods before-hand, do some of the early PotA stuff in swamp gear, you're going to run into roadblocks. But to go into PotA without hand-holding, without prior knowledge, and without even base-level raid gear? This area wasn't designed for that. Even KDQ was designed with raiders in mind. People who've at least gotten a few pieces of high-end gear. The second point is my main beef with the whole segregation of gear between playstyles. If it isn't very carefully managed, you'll end up in a position where the game isn't meant for you any more. Dielle's suggestion with cash loot mobs and then being able to acquire better and better gear based on the amount you're willing to spend is a good one, but I think it still leads to a similar issue, only less dire. You're still going to get content that's biased towards a certain level. Vanguard's current bias is post 50 raiders. And this has happened because the vets who stayed the longest, were the ones who raided and still had things to keep doing. In a way that was a good thing, because there were raid targets hard enough to keep people playing that would have regularly dropped off when they ran out of other things to do. Raiders kept this game on life-support when it probably should have crashed and burned (which is a sad statement, as I adore Vanguard). But this becomes a problem now that we have an influx of new players. They're going to run into those sudden changes in player bias. They'll progress through content, get to higher tiers of the game and then find that the game has changed suddenly. It's not what it used to be while they were leveling. My personal take on the gear disparity is that at their core mechanics, the different tiers should be no better than the hardest of any other style of gameplay. So the best raid gear should be, by core statistics, the same as the best group, the best solo, or the best crafted or what have you. What should set them apparent should be things like EEs, side-grading, different non-core stat bonuses. Maybe not more individually, but more in variety. Where your solo based gear will only have core stat upgrades (Intelligence, HP, Armour, etc) but as you move up in playstyle tiers you can gain access to regeneration bonuses, or critical damage bonuses, or special and unique activated abilities or equipted effects. I know this paradigm is so left-wing compared to VG's old-school methodology that it would never fit here. But the option to side-grade or have alternative upgrades as rewards always struck me as a better system than just a pure base mechanic push (that and the gear is just neater in general that way, where you get a whole new stat to increase, or something cool added on instead of +5 to all previous tier's stats).
I am not claiming they should have the same exact rewards. No one is. If 6 man could kill a group mob in and get 3 loots, identical loots... to a 24 man killing a raid mob, then yes, that would be an entitlement claim. But no one is arguing that. Frequency of drop, # of drops, spawns, etc, are also variables involved in the game that everyone is ignoring. Lets take an example. Imagine Vi'rak was fully itemized. There would still be the 4 global mythics, but the 18 named all dropped 1 orange loot (4 different ones, 25% chance each), and had a 10% chance to drop a bonus item (10% chance it's a purple, 90% chance it's one of 3 reds.) Given Vi'Raks 1 hour respawn timer and placeholder setup, getting the ultra rares would require MANY MANY hours of continuous grouping to acquire, as the chance to get a purple drop would be 1% per kill. Now, lets imagine Vi'Rak was also given a raid encounter, lets say on some island south of VT. Lets say it was the VEF (Vi'rak Expeditionary Force). It was a 24 man raid encounter with 7 tougher salamanders (one of each color), all of which had to be fought at once, with a bunch of 24 man raid mechanics (some OT'd, some CC'd, some burned, etc.) Lets say it was on a one day lockout. Overall, when broken down, the effort/difficulty per person for that encounter is about the same as the dungeon. APM might be lower in the raid, but this is balanced by having to manage other mechanics. For no reason whatsoever would that encounter require that it drop gear with stats beyond the scope of that dungeon. The fact that there are mechanics in play that don't exist in the dungeon, do not justify it. The fact that 24 people can do something 6 man can't don't justify it. The fact that the combined APM is higher than a 6 man does not justify it. If they itemized that raid encounter so it would always drop 7 loots: 1 gold, 2 Purples, and 4 reds, the encounter would be raided. By dropping the rarer loots much more commonly then the dungeon, that raid gives 'better rewards'. If you took the time investment to learn that encounter, once you did, you would be able to acquire the ultra rares from Vi'rak MUCH quicker then you would if you were grouping. Now, I'm sure some people like to inflate their sense of self-worth and would be upset that they are not being given 'exclusive' items and/or recognition for doing something someone else couldn't do. However, that's all it is. Inflation of self-worth. The reward for raiding the VEF instead of grouping in dungeons is you get the items before other people do. However, this is not long lasting, and this is what bothers many raiders who have elite attitudes. Over a long period of time, 'lifers' who grouped 4-6 hours a day in Vi'Rak would end up getting the same gear that people that only raided the VEF would get. And to them, this is offensive.
It's only an argumentative example. I'm not suggesting VG be reitemized in that fashion. What I do find interesting is how simplifying MMO itemization from solo to raids via quantified rewards cures SO MANY rampant raid problems (particularly ineffiencies) while only introducing a few superficial concerns.
Was everyone in your group only in swamp armor? I tried a couple years back with a full group of only swamp geared people and we couldn't even do the access kills, but maybe it was just us. A couple we could do, but most we could not without getting help from some people with apw and overland raid mob gear. One final thought it should be doable by 6 players in swamp only armor at level 50. Access and T1
Vi'Rak was a good example, I would not mind at all if it was setup like that allowing groups to get some of the same loot at a slower rate, what I was putting forward was a concern over that the same loot being given out at a much higher rate to groupers, leaving there no point to raiding and basically ruining end game, which VG relies heavily upon these days. I still believe that more APM/skill and coordination for a raid should be rewarded more so than a group but if there is a very rare chance of "some" of the same loot dropping for groups, I would not have a problem with that, just as long as not all raid loot was able to be obtained via cash shop or group/solo, there still needs to be some boundaries IMHO.
So it took you one year to learn how to kill a raid mob. How much time and efforts did it take to kill it the second time? And what about now? How much time and efforts does it take to get the first PotA Tier 3 armor piece? What about the second piece and so on? Now I am gonna join your guild and kill that raid mob. Nobody might need the loot so I will loot it. How much time and effort did I need? Now I am gonna join a group who did PotA Tier 3 armor to get my first PotA Tier 3 piece. How much time and effort will I have to spend on it?
I disagree with all of this,.. it seems that the ones arguing for raid quality loot from group mobs are forgetting a few things. Loot is not based on # of people to kill but on mob/creature difficulty. Yes i've read all of your arguments, not going to restate them. Let's use Belzane vs Karax as an example, Both are 'raid' targets. Can a single group kill Karax? no, not currently at least. Can a single group kill Belzane? Yes, Belzane can/could be killed by a group of 6. It might not be easy, it might be a very challenging fight for them depending up on the runes he puts up, but it could be done. So based on your number of people required / how hard it is for that 'group' size, theoretically Belzane should drop Karax quality loot when killed by a group of 6, yes? Sure you can say "no way Belzane could be killed by 6 people", eh.. take a group of 6 from Exile, Cobra, Unleashed or maybe a couple other guilds and try it... It can be done, period.You want raid quality loot from a mob that can be killed by 6 people, there you go, go kill Belzane or Masuke.. there's your raid quality loot from a mob that can be killed by 6 people, but it should not drop the same quality of loot as Karax of course not, because the mob/creature difficulty is not the same.. Your argument in this post "make the drops extremely rare in virak so you have to spend tons and tons and tons of time, grinding/camping/farming for it... explain to me please, how does that equate to skill level? it doesn't, it equates to determination, not skill, How does that equate to difficulty? it doesn't, it equates to only "spend X amount of time grinding this area & you can get raid quality loot"..
I'm not going to spend two hours reading everything from Moorgard's two posts to current. Can someone (dev or otherwise) please let me know if they plan on redoing the art assets in that chunk? Optimization of tiles and polygons in this game are woefully lacking. Look forward to checking this out.
You just keep restating the same flawed argument. Loot is not based on # of people to kill but on mob/creature difficulty. This is not fully correct, it's TOTAL Loot is not based on # of people to kill but on mob/creature difficulty. You purposefully ignore total to advance your own aims of monopolizing the good loot. If there was a flexible loot system that allowed you to break down and/or craft any loot with the right materials, you would not be so polarized on the quality of the loot. But since a significant amount of MMO's use an inflexible loot system where loot cannot be changed/altered, you want to capitalize on that inflexibility to permanently segregate people into castes. Even in D&D 3rd edition, you could 'farm' a bunch of longsword +1's, sell them at half price to a merchant, and then go buy a longsword +5. All within the given rules. There is no 'req level', or 'need the GM's blessing' If you are in a capital city, you can do that. There's no 'If you can't kill the ancient dragon, then you are not allowed to have a longsword +5 because you don't have the skills' As for the Vi'rak example, it is very common for people to dismiss skills they can't/refuse to do themselves. Take augments for example. I remember quite awhile ago you were advocating that raid mobs should drop the group/solo augments, because YOU recognize raiding as a skill, but dismiss efficiency at the group level to 'farm' them, claiming augment farming doesn't require any skill (the you personally can't, or refuse to do), and dismiss it as a 'time' thing. You are doing basically the same thing here. The only skill you personally recognize is raiding and/or "simon says" scripts, and you dismiss everything else. The people that are aligned with your interests, and beliefs in loot, should have 'the best gear', and everyone who doesn't, should be 'inferior' in game.
An example of inflexibility where groupers cannot get high end raid gear is the 'soulbound' system. If raid drops were all BoE, then there would be an avenue for groupers to get high end raid gear. They could buy/trade services at the group level for rots from a high end raid guild. But they can't. Why? Soulbound has absolutely nothign to do with your argument of 'raid mobs giving out the best gear.' yet it magnifies the consequences of it.
If you care to remember correctly, what I stated about augments is that they should have dropped from named mobs in high level dungeons, not on random yard trash, not just 'raid' encounters. I suggested removing them from the common mobs in SoD to the named only and adding them to the named loot tables in virak, and possibly other places. There is also another MAJOR flaw in your suggestions: I will use Karax again as an example, he has a decent sized loot table, so lets say you are wanting the tunic off of Karax, which has a fairly low drop rate (we have been killing him for the better part of a year now and have yet to see one drop). Now by your suggestion if we put a powerful "group" mob that a group of 6 can kill, and put it as a rare drop on it. By your suggestion a group could go for 4-6 hours killing it before getting one (depending on respawn rate), so lets say on average a group or solo person grinding this mob out could get one every 5 hours. Now try to get it in a raid set up, lets say you are not on the "top' of the list, have the highest dkp, whatever to get it when it drops. But it only drops say once every 5 months and now you have to wait behind 1, 2 or more people to get it. So if you see one every say 3-5 months, it could theoretically take you a year or longer before you see that drop raiding. So please tell me how say maybe getting the drop in 15 hours of grinding equals out to weeks, months or longer of killing a raid target to get it.. Everyone who plays the game is afforded the same options as players, it is the personal choices they make that will determine if they get the 'raid loot' or only 'group loot'.
That's a fine tuning issue. That's not really a flaw in the system, that's just the result of chances being setup the way they are. Lol, the entire point of these last few pages was that there should not be distinction between 'raid' and 'group' loot. There should just be loot.
And by that then, loot (in general) is determined on the difficulty of how hard the mob is to kill. which, please correct me if I am wrong, is currently how it is... ie, Shendu is harder to kill then Masuke, so loot is better, Masuke is harder to kill than a named in Magi Hold, so loot is better ... or better yet.. Ataraxis & Zaseh are harder to kill than <insert name of any of the other named in pota), therefore the loot is better... X-77 is harder to kill than Heg, therefore the loot is better... Should I go on? /scratches head in confusion... huh?
Until you put some significant holes in my counter that 'better' can be either quantity or quality, then no. Quality segregates when combined with other factors, such as weak crafting, or soulbound restrictions. Quantity does not. There should not be solid barrier between groupers and them having an avenue to BIS. It can be a severe climb, and/or that avenue may involve others raiding for them and selling them loot/mats, but having anything along the lines of "If you physically are not in a raid group, there's 100% absolutely no way you can get that gear" is absurd.
They DO have an avenue to BIS, the same as Everyone Else does!.. that is the point you are missing.. they as players CHOOSE not to take that avenue and join a raid to get the loot. Every player has the same opportunities in game as any other player does.. What they CHOOSE to do is up to them. No one is saying that because they are 'groupers' that they can never join a raid.. they have that Option, same as everyone else, so they have the availability / avenue that Any other player has.. By saying I want X quality of loot without having to raid to get it, is like saying "I dont want to get up and go to work 5 days a week, but I want to be able to get a paycheck anyways"...
You are assuming that gear of quality X can only be given to people attending and doing event Y. That's the inflexible part of the loot system, and is part of the problem. Nope. It's more like raiders saying "If you want to buy something worth $1000, you need to get a job that pays $1000/check. You can't save up 5 payments at $200 for it."
How is that a 'problem'? Every player who plays the game is allowed/has the same avenue of getting loot, there is no magical restriction in game that says "oh you have only ever grouped, you can't join a raid to try to get X, Y or Z item".. The only restrictions on that is what WE as players, or Guilds may put on it.. there is nothing in the game mechanic's that stops it from happening.. So please tell me, where is the problem if everyone has the same opportunities????? Inflexible? meh.. harder to kill stuff drops better loot.. plain and simple.. not sure where there is a 'problem'....
The problem is one style (in this case, killing raid mobs for loots) has monopoly access (reinforced with raidlock/soulbound) to loot every other playstyle also desires. You can't have both exclusive loot, and barriers in place to prevent transfer/acquisition of best loot by any non-raider. That's where/how the segregation occurs. I'll put it to you another way. Why should the best loot only be 'source'd from raids? Lets assume, for now, that you are a right. That raids, because they require "more" should drop better loot than group or loot. But why the best source of loot? Even if I concede the point for the sake of this example that raid loot should be better than grouping or solo'ing, you still haven't stated why better equates with best. Nor does it immediately equate with exclusivity of highest stat gear. All you have shown, IF I CONCEDE THE POINT, is that it should have higher stats than what drops in groups or solo. What's stopping the best loot from coming from quests? What's to say there can't be a quest that gives an item that's BETTER than what drops in raids, or groups, or soloing? The quest accepts any of the following and rewards the exact same item. 6000 Solo Mob kills 600 Group Mobs kills 3 Raid Mob kills For sake of the example, the item is only slightly 5% better than what drops from raids, 15% better then what drops in groups, and 25% better than what drops from solo'ing. What would be wrong with that quest? What would be wrong with a set of said quests that give complete BIS across the board? With such a set of quests there is no segregation, raid loot drops better loot than grouping or solo'ing, raids give gear that doesn't drop off group or solo mobs, everything seems peachy.
Lets drop the words "group" and "raid".. and lets flat line this down to the basic's.. which I think we all should agree on: The harder the mob is to kill, the better loot it should give. Correct? So in that retrospect, then the items from the hardest mob to kill should not come from the easiest or even middle of the range mobs, correct? its a simple basic concept, the harder something is to kill, the better reward you are going to get. So what is the hardest mob to kill in game? lets see, we can list them in order: Tharridon > Sparkles > Shendu / Karax > War Golem, etc.. so what are mobs underneath all of these? Don't' think i need to make a list.. but please, tell me why Any mob lesser in strength / difficulty should drop loot equivalent to anything that those drop. You have yet to put up any argument that defines/explains how killing 6000 mobs easy mobs = the same difficulty as killing 600 harder mobs = the same difficulty killing the hardest mob 3x.. please explain how that difficulty evens out? is killing 6000 easy mobs as hard as killing the hardest mob? No it is not, it doesn't it doesn't make it more 'difficult' it makes it a grind / a camp, a repetition of repeatedly killing easy mobs.
