Raid Loot Bug
Moderator: Community Managers
Re: Raid Loot Bug
Seems like Zaraj-Arena style loot progression plus 'physical' coin in the bags might work out the best. It'll give people an incentive to raid, without the obnoxious pressures of loot. It'll help people feel like they're progressing, even if they don't get the loot they want as an instant drop.
I do recommend some limitations just to make it so it's not 'super easy' to just farm for loot:
#1. You can't get anything off a mob that you haven't been in on a kill for. So you need to get flagged for certain loot drops to show up on the Raid Loot NPC. This way if you kill Jagund 1000 times, you can't get Shendu loot unless you've actually been in on a Shendu kill. (This right here is a good reason to keep lockout timers in game so people can't just kill Jagund 1000 times to get coins for higher tier loot).
#2. Just to make it slightly more difficult, the NPC might require some things other than the coins, such as "Diplo papers" and "Crafted parts" like what is needed for the Griffon Quest and APW. This will also give Diplomats and Crafters something else to participate in on.
Okay, that's all I can think of.
I do recommend some limitations just to make it so it's not 'super easy' to just farm for loot:
#1. You can't get anything off a mob that you haven't been in on a kill for. So you need to get flagged for certain loot drops to show up on the Raid Loot NPC. This way if you kill Jagund 1000 times, you can't get Shendu loot unless you've actually been in on a Shendu kill. (This right here is a good reason to keep lockout timers in game so people can't just kill Jagund 1000 times to get coins for higher tier loot).
#2. Just to make it slightly more difficult, the NPC might require some things other than the coins, such as "Diplo papers" and "Crafted parts" like what is needed for the Griffon Quest and APW. This will also give Diplomats and Crafters something else to participate in on.
Okay, that's all I can think of.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
[quote="Jakkal"]I love ya Kilsin, but I think this is where we disagree.
I don't think it makes the game easier to get a drop you've been working hard for, regardless if you get it the first night, or six months later. While gear is important to progression, it's doubly important for player morale. There's a really fine line here between "earning you loot" and "running off all your players from frustration."
What I've written in this thread is based on my experiences as a guild leader, raid leader, and master looter for our raids. I wish I could say that most of our guys were in it for the companionship and joy, but that only goes so far when you've killed something several times and something several people need just will not drop at all.
To give an example, when my guild Safe Haven first entered APW, the Zaraax Dagger dropped, but I didn't win it because we had rolling on, and someone else rolled need and higher than me (That stupid bard!). I did not see that drop again for 6 months. We killed Zaraax every week for 6 months and it wouldn't drop at all, to the point that everything he dropped was rot loot, even for the crappy alts people were bringing. And I was not the only rogue that needed it.
I don't think it made the game more difficult or "challenging" because I couldn't get that drop. It didn't make it more "rewarding" when it finally dropped. It made me feel like I was wasting everyone's time for that drop. I know many of my other guildies felt similarly about things they wanted, that they couldn't get to drop.
I know the example is not the best because I also moved on to bigger and better things after that, but we're talking about retaining players. It's very important not to frustrate players or you'll lose them forever.
I really like the Zaraj-Token-Idea because even if it takes me 6 months, or even a year, to earn up the required tokens to get an item - at least I know I'm making progress towards it. And that saves my morale, and keeps me raiding. And I don't feel like this idea makes the game any easier, or more challenging. It takes out the guess work and makes me feel like I'm moving forward in my progression. This system will get people to raid stuff they otherwise wouldn't volunteer for, because they get rewarded just for participating.
We lost so very many players because of loot issues, and I know we're not going to be able to afford to lose players to loot issues, which is why I bring this up.[/quote]
I agree that waiting for drops is not fun or challenging, I also waited way too long on multiple characters for much needed items which is why I did say at the end of my post what I think will fix this issue in the first place.
"I think fixing the actual cause of it like itemisation and loot tables/% drop rates will be more than enough."
Either reduce the loot table, spread them out across more mobs or allow more loot to drop, so we don't play the loot table RNG game and instead play the loot RNG game as intended, you will then see those items drop more often but not at ridiculous levels, it just won't be 6 months or 11 months for my Rogue belt in PotA /cry
I was trying to explain that loot is the important part which is what draws us back and we need to fix that not the mechanic in which we get it or distribute it but the actual loot table and drop rates, that mixed with itemisation balance (removing or not including all of the level 30-40 orange OP items) will make this issue go away for good, so when we do finally get to that level it will be more enjoyable without exploiting or the need for coins or tokens etc.
I may not have worded it properly, I was half asleep when I posted the one above, sorry!
TL;DR: The problem is the extra large loot tables and %chance of drop rate on each item, so remove the OP orange crap from the failed itemisation sweep before F2P and tweak the drop rate and loot tables - problem solved.
I don't think it makes the game easier to get a drop you've been working hard for, regardless if you get it the first night, or six months later. While gear is important to progression, it's doubly important for player morale. There's a really fine line here between "earning you loot" and "running off all your players from frustration."
What I've written in this thread is based on my experiences as a guild leader, raid leader, and master looter for our raids. I wish I could say that most of our guys were in it for the companionship and joy, but that only goes so far when you've killed something several times and something several people need just will not drop at all.
To give an example, when my guild Safe Haven first entered APW, the Zaraax Dagger dropped, but I didn't win it because we had rolling on, and someone else rolled need and higher than me (That stupid bard!). I did not see that drop again for 6 months. We killed Zaraax every week for 6 months and it wouldn't drop at all, to the point that everything he dropped was rot loot, even for the crappy alts people were bringing. And I was not the only rogue that needed it.
I don't think it made the game more difficult or "challenging" because I couldn't get that drop. It didn't make it more "rewarding" when it finally dropped. It made me feel like I was wasting everyone's time for that drop. I know many of my other guildies felt similarly about things they wanted, that they couldn't get to drop.
I know the example is not the best because I also moved on to bigger and better things after that, but we're talking about retaining players. It's very important not to frustrate players or you'll lose them forever.
I really like the Zaraj-Token-Idea because even if it takes me 6 months, or even a year, to earn up the required tokens to get an item - at least I know I'm making progress towards it. And that saves my morale, and keeps me raiding. And I don't feel like this idea makes the game any easier, or more challenging. It takes out the guess work and makes me feel like I'm moving forward in my progression. This system will get people to raid stuff they otherwise wouldn't volunteer for, because they get rewarded just for participating.
We lost so very many players because of loot issues, and I know we're not going to be able to afford to lose players to loot issues, which is why I bring this up.[/quote]
I agree that waiting for drops is not fun or challenging, I also waited way too long on multiple characters for much needed items which is why I did say at the end of my post what I think will fix this issue in the first place.
"I think fixing the actual cause of it like itemisation and loot tables/% drop rates will be more than enough."
Either reduce the loot table, spread them out across more mobs or allow more loot to drop, so we don't play the loot table RNG game and instead play the loot RNG game as intended, you will then see those items drop more often but not at ridiculous levels, it just won't be 6 months or 11 months for my Rogue belt in PotA /cry
I was trying to explain that loot is the important part which is what draws us back and we need to fix that not the mechanic in which we get it or distribute it but the actual loot table and drop rates, that mixed with itemisation balance (removing or not including all of the level 30-40 orange OP items) will make this issue go away for good, so when we do finally get to that level it will be more enjoyable without exploiting or the need for coins or tokens etc.
I may not have worded it properly, I was half asleep when I posted the one above, sorry!
TL;DR: The problem is the extra large loot tables and %chance of drop rate on each item, so remove the OP orange crap from the failed itemisation sweep before F2P and tweak the drop rate and loot tables - problem solved.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
I haven't thoroughly read the responses but see a bit of a thought...
With regards to the token system it's a mixed bag. I do like the idea of it to reduce getting screwed by the RNG Gods, but I don't like tokens as the only way to get the gear either (FFXIV does this and it feels... Weak).
What I do like though is the idea of being able to take stuff that would have otherwise rotted and use that as tokens. So for a while you're not likely to worry about having gear rot, because chances are someone will be able to get an upgrade out of it. But when you get to the point of backfilling, or hunting for a specific drop you can make use of those items that would have otherwise dropped to turn in towards other rewards (sidegrades or something perhaps).
Say a boss drops an item from a pool of six items. Your six man group each needs one of those items. The first five runs at the boss five of your group get their drops. But the next three runs that sixth item doesn't drop. Sixth person gets the three things that would have rotted and then turns them in for something at a token exchange. Whether that's an item from the pool, or another set of items I'm not sure which would be best.
With regards to the token system it's a mixed bag. I do like the idea of it to reduce getting screwed by the RNG Gods, but I don't like tokens as the only way to get the gear either (FFXIV does this and it feels... Weak).
What I do like though is the idea of being able to take stuff that would have otherwise rotted and use that as tokens. So for a while you're not likely to worry about having gear rot, because chances are someone will be able to get an upgrade out of it. But when you get to the point of backfilling, or hunting for a specific drop you can make use of those items that would have otherwise dropped to turn in towards other rewards (sidegrades or something perhaps).
Say a boss drops an item from a pool of six items. Your six man group each needs one of those items. The first five runs at the boss five of your group get their drops. But the next three runs that sixth item doesn't drop. Sixth person gets the three things that would have rotted and then turns them in for something at a token exchange. Whether that's an item from the pool, or another set of items I'm not sure which would be best.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
It seems like people are trying to change the game. I thought the objective of this project was to preserve Vanguard and fix the bugs.
The options playing out in this thread seem more like options for alternate servers than what should be on the official emu server.
The options playing out in this thread seem more like options for alternate servers than what should be on the official emu server.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
[quote="rottstein"]It seems like people are trying to change the game. I thought the objective of this project was to preserve Vanguard and fix the bugs.
The options playing out in this thread seem more like options for alternate servers than what should be on the official emu server.[/quote]
Thats still the goal to emulate the live server as closely as possible to how it was at sunset, within reason. There are things that nobody really liked that may get altered a bit, although thats a long way off. For instance, we don't *have* to emulate the bottlenecking and grind of Shores of Darkness.
This is just the wish list forum though for people to voice their thoughts. It doesn't mean that any/all of this will show up on New Telon. But it is always good to hear about what people liked, didn't like, and their ideas for change.
The options playing out in this thread seem more like options for alternate servers than what should be on the official emu server.[/quote]
Thats still the goal to emulate the live server as closely as possible to how it was at sunset, within reason. There are things that nobody really liked that may get altered a bit, although thats a long way off. For instance, we don't *have* to emulate the bottlenecking and grind of Shores of Darkness.
This is just the wish list forum though for people to voice their thoughts. It doesn't mean that any/all of this will show up on New Telon. But it is always good to hear about what people liked, didn't like, and their ideas for change.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
I agree with Kilsin here. Fix the loot tables and RNG and the problem should fix itself. Idon't think i am a fan of the "arena tokens" method for loot drops. That seems to me to easy to get gear. Some items were not meant to be held by the many only a few lucky
Re: Raid Loot Bug
[quote="rottstein"]It seems like people are trying to change the game. I thought the objective of this project was to preserve Vanguard and fix the bugs.
The options playing out in this thread seem more like options for alternate servers than what should be on the official emu server.[/quote]
The problem with this sentiment is that "the Game" went through many different versions, from launch to the final game update, and several changes were made along the way. So "preserving Vanguard" means different things to everyone involved. And "Fixing the bugs" is also subjective based on "what is a bug" and "what was intended".
What some people think is a fun and interesting game, others think is pure frustration. And if some people were so enamored with the game in the early stages, why did so many leave? The answer is simple, it wasn't fun.
I never stopped playing Vanguard from beta up to the sunset announcement. I went through every single change that it made. I never once took a break and returned later. My favorite version of the game is going to be quite different from people that played a little at beta and came back a couple of years before release. Some people might prefer Beta because that's all they experienced, and some people might prefer Sunset because that was all they experienced. And you have to admit that those were two completely different versions of the game.
The developers here are attempting to recreate the game, with the idea in mind to fix "problems" and remove SOE based frustration. However, what is a problem to one is enjoyable to another. So the developers have to do the best they can with the suggestions that people make.
So making comments like this is ultimately self defeating. If you have a gripe about proposals, it's best to state your gripe and why you don't like it, as Apaelias and Kilsin has. This is how we make progress.
The options playing out in this thread seem more like options for alternate servers than what should be on the official emu server.[/quote]
The problem with this sentiment is that "the Game" went through many different versions, from launch to the final game update, and several changes were made along the way. So "preserving Vanguard" means different things to everyone involved. And "Fixing the bugs" is also subjective based on "what is a bug" and "what was intended".
What some people think is a fun and interesting game, others think is pure frustration. And if some people were so enamored with the game in the early stages, why did so many leave? The answer is simple, it wasn't fun.
I never stopped playing Vanguard from beta up to the sunset announcement. I went through every single change that it made. I never once took a break and returned later. My favorite version of the game is going to be quite different from people that played a little at beta and came back a couple of years before release. Some people might prefer Beta because that's all they experienced, and some people might prefer Sunset because that was all they experienced. And you have to admit that those were two completely different versions of the game.
The developers here are attempting to recreate the game, with the idea in mind to fix "problems" and remove SOE based frustration. However, what is a problem to one is enjoyable to another. So the developers have to do the best they can with the suggestions that people make.
So making comments like this is ultimately self defeating. If you have a gripe about proposals, it's best to state your gripe and why you don't like it, as Apaelias and Kilsin has. This is how we make progress.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
Well I'll agree this is a can of worms. As far as I know everyone called this a bug even those that used it. I have no problem with using it for group content, but I feel a toon should participate to get raid gear even if they are just being carried through the fight.
Loot causes drama enough as it is. It is far simpler to have to be on the toon that gets the loot. If that toon isn't good enough to even be carried through a fight it doesn't deserve those items. I remember hearing about the loot drama from other guilds that used the bug because people perceived it as being used unfairly. I really don't think it should be endorsed.
If you leave it as it was I can accept that although I'd rather have it fixed so you had to kill the mob to get the loot at least for raids. I do think group content should be more flexible but I would be fine if each toon has to earn their drops instead of well once we gave a level 35 war a ted belt (basically best in slot belt) because we could and no one in the kill group had a higher level toon able to get there... I'd say 12 or fewer people you can /give the loot to anyone in the group/raid 13+ and they have to have been in on the kill to get loot. (yes I do think of 12 toons as just a group because I played with a few people who played an army themselves so 12 toons could just be 3 or 4 of us)
I can also accept the EQ method that a corpse opens up to anyone after x number of minutes. I don't know if I'm remembering right but when I first started I seem to recall being able to open up other peoples corpses after a time... I might just be mixing it with EQ though.
Zaraj coin style drops for raid loot I don't want. Actually I think that option would be enough for me to give up following this project any further. Some loot should be rare. It should be worth bragging rights to have the only x on the server or be able to talk about how many times y has dropped and who has them. I am not entitled to a purple item or aug or ANYTHING just because I have killed a mob once a week for a year or two. I don't want my raid loot from a vending machine. I want to have goals that I may never achieve but that I can work towards with a group of friends. It can be exciting to hear some uber rare item dropped. It is not exciting in my opinion to farm coins.
Account bound would be the same. I don't want to be able to share gear between my toons I want to gear them all uniquely... Otherwise that will remove some of the pride you can take in a character, and people might question your motives more for taking a piece of gear, and my shaman was bad enough at looting random things without someone accusing that they would be for another toon.
Lockout timers should stay. Near the end it didn't matter because it was the end. Most people who would farm a mob to death already had so the lockout timers were a way to participate in multiple pugs that picked the same mob. For a while the overlands didn't have lockout timers they just had 3ish day re-spawns. You know what happened? One or two guilds got nearly all the spawns. Everyone else just did apw which still had lockouts. No lockouts and fast respawns means whenever a guild gets to the point they can kill a mob they will farm it repeatedly to gear everyone. No lockouts means burning through content faster, and less fun but people will still do it to be the best. I wouldn't mind lockout timer removers to be available in small quantities from some in game method. Something like one a week could be earned. They do help to make the pug raids more viable if the wrong classes show up and you want to volunteer a toon that is already locked.
Just my two cents worth...
Loot causes drama enough as it is. It is far simpler to have to be on the toon that gets the loot. If that toon isn't good enough to even be carried through a fight it doesn't deserve those items. I remember hearing about the loot drama from other guilds that used the bug because people perceived it as being used unfairly. I really don't think it should be endorsed.
If you leave it as it was I can accept that although I'd rather have it fixed so you had to kill the mob to get the loot at least for raids. I do think group content should be more flexible but I would be fine if each toon has to earn their drops instead of well once we gave a level 35 war a ted belt (basically best in slot belt) because we could and no one in the kill group had a higher level toon able to get there... I'd say 12 or fewer people you can /give the loot to anyone in the group/raid 13+ and they have to have been in on the kill to get loot. (yes I do think of 12 toons as just a group because I played with a few people who played an army themselves so 12 toons could just be 3 or 4 of us)
I can also accept the EQ method that a corpse opens up to anyone after x number of minutes. I don't know if I'm remembering right but when I first started I seem to recall being able to open up other peoples corpses after a time... I might just be mixing it with EQ though.
Zaraj coin style drops for raid loot I don't want. Actually I think that option would be enough for me to give up following this project any further. Some loot should be rare. It should be worth bragging rights to have the only x on the server or be able to talk about how many times y has dropped and who has them. I am not entitled to a purple item or aug or ANYTHING just because I have killed a mob once a week for a year or two. I don't want my raid loot from a vending machine. I want to have goals that I may never achieve but that I can work towards with a group of friends. It can be exciting to hear some uber rare item dropped. It is not exciting in my opinion to farm coins.
Account bound would be the same. I don't want to be able to share gear between my toons I want to gear them all uniquely... Otherwise that will remove some of the pride you can take in a character, and people might question your motives more for taking a piece of gear, and my shaman was bad enough at looting random things without someone accusing that they would be for another toon.
Lockout timers should stay. Near the end it didn't matter because it was the end. Most people who would farm a mob to death already had so the lockout timers were a way to participate in multiple pugs that picked the same mob. For a while the overlands didn't have lockout timers they just had 3ish day re-spawns. You know what happened? One or two guilds got nearly all the spawns. Everyone else just did apw which still had lockouts. No lockouts and fast respawns means whenever a guild gets to the point they can kill a mob they will farm it repeatedly to gear everyone. No lockouts means burning through content faster, and less fun but people will still do it to be the best. I wouldn't mind lockout timer removers to be available in small quantities from some in game method. Something like one a week could be earned. They do help to make the pug raids more viable if the wrong classes show up and you want to volunteer a toon that is already locked.
Just my two cents worth...
Re: Raid Loot Bug
I'm not thrilled with the token idea. I did not like it when crafting upgrades were converted from drops to tokens (though the drops could, at least, be traded). If we're going to do tokens, I think it should be limited to rot loot (i.e. if the ML destroyed something, it would be converted into tokens, or something like that).
On the other hand, I don't really care if /give works for raid loot. Just because one character got lucky with the RNG doesn't mean another character is somehow lesser because he was unlucky. If someone is worried that the recipient should at least have participated at some point, then it shouldn't be too difficult to track boss kills and limit transfer accordingly. The game tracks this for some kills, so the logic should be there already.
On the third hand, if someone isn't playing a given toon because he isn't particularly useful in a raid, then that toon probably doesn't really need the item he's missing out on. If a player wants it that bad, let him show up for the raid on that character.
On the fourth hand, I like the idea of rationalizing the loot tables to eliminate crap drops for top tier boss mobs, thus improving the odds on the RNG.
In any case, this isn't a big deal to me. I'm used to getting items on the character I brought to the raid, and I can live with that. I also don't care that someone got something they didn't "earn." I got over that a long time ago. Most people are going to get as much as they can get for as little effort as they can get away with. That's just human nature. I have come to view it as a matter of personal honor. I don't accept things I didn't earn. If someone else does, that's his business.
On the other hand, I don't really care if /give works for raid loot. Just because one character got lucky with the RNG doesn't mean another character is somehow lesser because he was unlucky. If someone is worried that the recipient should at least have participated at some point, then it shouldn't be too difficult to track boss kills and limit transfer accordingly. The game tracks this for some kills, so the logic should be there already.
On the third hand, if someone isn't playing a given toon because he isn't particularly useful in a raid, then that toon probably doesn't really need the item he's missing out on. If a player wants it that bad, let him show up for the raid on that character.
On the fourth hand, I like the idea of rationalizing the loot tables to eliminate crap drops for top tier boss mobs, thus improving the odds on the RNG.
In any case, this isn't a big deal to me. I'm used to getting items on the character I brought to the raid, and I can live with that. I also don't care that someone got something they didn't "earn." I got over that a long time ago. Most people are going to get as much as they can get for as little effort as they can get away with. That's just human nature. I have come to view it as a matter of personal honor. I don't accept things I didn't earn. If someone else does, that's his business.
Re: Raid Loot Bug
It seems like Killin had the best suggestion. If loot was a problem, solve the problem with loot tables and itemization. I would say that would be priority #1 to address the problem. If there are still issues after that, reevaluate and see if any ideas presented will feasibly help the issue. No reason to reinvent the wheel.