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Paladin damage needs to be fixed

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:29 am
by WarCleric
First I'd like to say that Vanguard was and still is my favorite game of all time. I played for many years. Paladin was my favorite class. And I have been following this project for many years. So it's disappointing to see that you are this far into development and something as fundamental as just basic damage output is not done correctly. Paladin is hitting for a small percentage of what every other class is putting out. They are receiving no damage bonus from Strength (a primary attribute) or any other attribute. So they are only doing base weapon damage. A new paladin on IoD is autoattacking for 3-4 damage while a new Dreadknight is hitting for 40. Something is very wrong here and shouldn't be at this stage. I saw a developer post on this site stating this: "Entered on Dec 13, 2017 11:12 by Xinux - Paladin's did not get bonus damage from strength. The bonus was removed awhile before sunset." This is false. Even if this was true, how can you justify leaving in a system that is so clearly broken it makes a whole class pointless to play? I'm sorry for ranting, I guess it's because Vanguard has always been so near and dear to my heart, but I see so much time being spent on other things for this project instead of getting the fundamentals done correctly first.

Re: Paladin damage needs to be fixed

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:04 am
by Jakkal
So it's disappointing to see that you are this far into development and something as fundamental as just basic damage output is not done correctly.
#1. No class is putting out the kind of damage output as in Live. We are not there yet. We are not "This far into development". We are in a very early alpha state. If you hit an attack and numbers pop up on the mob, congratulations, it's working as it should.
#2. There is no such thing as "basic damage" in this game because there are so many factors involved in how much damage you're putting out. These factors could be buffs, gear, stats, attributes, etc. Not all classes have their buffs, attributes and skills factored in yet.
#3. Paladin damage in Live was awful, especially at the start. Source: I, too, played a Paladin.
Something is very wrong here and shouldn't be at this stage.
I'm trying to figure out at what nebulous stage you've pigeonholed us into to get this mad over a game still being rebuilt. Hint: We're no where near comparable to Live. Here's what you should be testing: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3002

Do keep in mind that right now you are not "playing VG". You are testing VGO. We are still in a state that needs testing. And actual damage numbers is not something you should be testing. Is it lower than other classes? Yes? Then maybe something is wrong with them. or something hasn't been set up for the one you're playing. This the reality of VGO and if you wish to test it, then you must accept that everything is in a super early state. If you give me the argument about how "You've been working on this for years" then I'm going to remind you that there is only six of us on the team, none of us work on it full time, all of us are volunteers that use our free time, and all you're doing is hitting buttons.

TLDR; Chill, we're still working on it.
I saw a developer post on this site stating this: "Entered on Dec 13, 2017 11:12 by Xinux - Paladin's did not get bonus damage from strength. The bonus was removed awhile before sunset." This is false. Even if this was true, how can you justify leaving in a system that is so clearly broken it makes a whole class pointless to play?
This is not false. You may have played for years but you didn't play enough apparently. At some point in the later stages of the game, the SOE/Daybreak devs realized that the Paladin class was doing way too much damage and finally gave the class a well needed nerfing. I played a raiding paladin for our guild and even I knew that the Paladin was super OP and needed a nerf. I also do recall how miserable paladin DPS was when I was trying to level it.

Regardless of how you feel about this, a lot of what we do goes through the client. The client does not recognize that the Paladin gets a str bonus. While the devs are able to actually give the Paladin a str bonus, IF THEY DID, it would never show up and display the numbers correctly on your character sheet because the CLIENT controls that, and we have no means of editing the client. So it's been somewhat of a debate of if we should leave it like Live did it (Which is what the majority of us believe for the majority of these cases) or give Paladins their Str bonus and always display the incorrect information on the character sheet.

If the class is pointless for you to play, then try another one. But be warned, "at the stage we're at", it's not going to be fully fleshed out as Live VG either - no matter which one you pick.

You are welcome to make a proper bug report on this, but if the math is sound for the abilities, then they won't be changed, and you'll have to wait until we get the other stuff (stats, attributes, etc) working with it.

Re: Paladin damage needs to be fixed

Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:21 pm
by Fanglore
Thumbs up, Jakkal. Appreciate all you do, I can only imagine how often you and the other dev's have to contend with eager players that have the wrong assumption about the current state of VGO. AKA Y'all need more time, but I am patiently waiting :)

Re: Paladin damage needs to be fixed

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:33 am
by Faux
As right as Jakkal is, I spent last night going looking through the client and trying to figure out what is going on here. The best I have been able to determine is that the Paladin's should be getting a strength bonus from damage (the lowest of the three tanks, but it shouldn't be that much lower).

RIght now, we are exempting Paladins from that bonus, which will be changing in my next commit. The other problem I unearthed is that the bonus we are granting the classes that are getting a bonus is way too high. It looks like we are using the same equation the client is using to display in the strength tooltip, but our numbers are not what the client is showing. So for Paladins we have a two facet problem. They are not getting a strength bonus and they should be...and secondly, Dread knights and Warriors (and all other classes) are getting way too much of a bonus.

Just to put these classes in perspective, these are the class specific tuning mulitipliers that we obtained for the strength bonus:
Warriors = 1.12
Dread Knight = 1.05
Paladin = 0.98
Monk = 1.49

Re: Paladin damage needs to be fixed

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:01 am
by elquar
Oh my that is intresting Faux lookong foreward to testing it all out when its pushed to servers.

Good bye sweet Warrior damage!😢😢😢
(Well seemed to sweet but i am prob biased)

Re: Paladin damage needs to be fixed

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:34 am
by Faux
So, Foof and I discussed this and we figured out that between my desktop and my laptop, the client is reporting different strength bonuses in the tooltip. According to Foof's client and my laptop client, the damage bonus numbers are correct. My desktop client is reporting numbers that are far lower. I'm going to delete and reinstall the client on the desktop.

So everyone can rest easy that we have removed all restrictions of strength bonus based on class, and Paladins will be doing more comparable damage to Dread Knights and Warriors in the next server update.

Re: Paladin damage needs to be fixed

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:57 pm
by WarCleric
Yes I did know that Paladins were nerfed towards sunset, but removing the Strength bonus was not how it was done. I am incredibly impressed that you looked into this and have a fix already coming through. I was so blown away I just gave a donation. I eagerly await the next server update.

Re: Paladin damage needs to be fixed

Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 2:36 am
by WarCleric
I see you’ve already pushed it through. Paladin damage feels real good now, much more in line with the other tanks. So happy, much appreciated.

Re: Paladin damage needs to be fixed

Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:13 am
by Faux
Great! I'll have to hop on my Paladin soon and play around with him.

Re: Paladin damage needs to be fixed

Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:23 am
by wheema
Just a few questions based on this post: Are any of the classes where they "should" be? I'm sure they all have their issues, correct? Or are there one or two that are complete or closer to complete than others? Are there certain classes recommended for those that have difficulty playing their toon when it's not as it was in live? I mean, it's super cool that you guys looked into it and made changes, but you've already stated that this isn't your priority right now. I could complain that my favorite class isn't up to par with how it was in live (come ooonnnn Shaman!! ;) lol), but is that not just silly being there are several other classes to choose from? If the game was at a further stage of development & you guys were asking us to test classes, I could understand the issue, but at this stage??