Rumors and Myths?
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- John Adams
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Re: Rumors and Myths?
Hey Pilgrim. Sadly, things are so "just starting" Xinux and I are basically starting over with current VG packets trying to figure out even the beginning of things. Since neither of us are strong C++ developers, this might take some time but he's pretty good at analyzing packets.
Stay tuned!
Stay tuned!
Re: Rumors and Myths?
I too was interested in Ramsey's abandoned work a couple years ago, and started trying to analyze some packets, but with my inexperience I felt overwhelmed. I do have basic C++/C# skills, and will help with what I can when this picks up down the road. Vanguard is worth putting this effort into.
- John Adams
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Re: Rumors and Myths?
Agreed. I don't think the official game is going away anytime soon (just announced going F2P) so thankfully we'll have time to try and build a collector and get some data to see about rolling the ball here. It will be slow going, but hopefully people will get interested and a real project will form.
Re: Rumors and Myths?
I have noticed that a LOT of MMO emulator developer seem fixated on C++ development....but then I look at what the pros have done (like with Aion, using Java, and from my own work with SWG:ANH, and seen just how much longer it takes to develop in C++ and how hard it is to find C++ developers...
I have to ask...WHY develop ANY MMO emulator in C++ these days because lack of C++ developers ensures that any MMO emulator based on C++ is going to move at a snail's pace and require a LOT more coding effort. Reality is these servers do NOT actually NEED all that 'performance' that C++ offers, and the pros have already proven that Java can handle the loads (like Aion).
I mean I personally know a cpl people who have cranked out there own SWG emulator cores using Java, got to the point of being able to zone in and move around the world in a 1/4 the time it takes to do the same time in C++ and you can do multi-threading with Java too.
At any rate, I think we would see a lot more server emulators a lot farther along with more active developers if they chose to use C# or Java instead. Instead too many of them seem to be stuck as some kind of C++ science project that their developers eventually get frustrated with and have no more time for. (In reality a lot of them actually are college CompSci projects that get abandoned once they graduate)
This is also why a number of indie MMO publishers use Java even for their clients, like Wurm Online, and of course the venerable Eve Online with its stackless Python. Once can get working code published that much faster.
I have to ask...WHY develop ANY MMO emulator in C++ these days because lack of C++ developers ensures that any MMO emulator based on C++ is going to move at a snail's pace and require a LOT more coding effort. Reality is these servers do NOT actually NEED all that 'performance' that C++ offers, and the pros have already proven that Java can handle the loads (like Aion).
I mean I personally know a cpl people who have cranked out there own SWG emulator cores using Java, got to the point of being able to zone in and move around the world in a 1/4 the time it takes to do the same time in C++ and you can do multi-threading with Java too.
At any rate, I think we would see a lot more server emulators a lot farther along with more active developers if they chose to use C# or Java instead. Instead too many of them seem to be stuck as some kind of C++ science project that their developers eventually get frustrated with and have no more time for. (In reality a lot of them actually are college CompSci projects that get abandoned once they graduate)
This is also why a number of indie MMO publishers use Java even for their clients, like Wurm Online, and of course the venerable Eve Online with its stackless Python. Once can get working code published that much faster.
- John Adams
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- Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:40 am
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Re: Rumors and Myths?
No sorry, I've been super busy with work and any spare time I have, I am trying to manage the EQ2Emulator project. I am looking a bit more into VGEmu this week and possibly the long weekend ahead. Reading another comment here though, I am curious to try my hand at C# and .Net as suggested. Might be easier than C++ , but that goes against every fiber of my mortal being
- John Adams
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Re: Rumors and Myths?
[quote="kinshi"]I have to ask...WHY develop ANY MMO emulator in C++ these days because lack of C++ developers ensures that any MMO emulator based on C++ is going to move at a snail's pace and require a LOT more coding effort. Reality is these servers do NOT actually NEED all that 'performance' that C++ offers, and the pros have already proven that Java can handle the loads (like Aion).[/quote]
Thanks for the input, kinshi. Your words are valued here. I personally detest Java, mostly because I understand it less than I do ASM and I am one of those who fully believes compiled code outruns runtime code any day of the week.
As a developer yourself, you should know the incredible amount of processing that is going on when even a single user is logged into a "zone". Thread after thread is spinning away checking all sorts of things. When you load a world with 100, 200, 500 players, all getting checked on constantly, not to mention huge raid battles that need every client as close to in sync as possible - you can NOT beat C++ efficiency. There's a reason it's hard; because it's super-bad-ass.
When IDE creators start "writing code for you", that's when you lose not only development talent, but power and control. C# I could almost abide by, though I still insist it is massively slow compared to a C++ Command-Line app - we're talking under heavy load, not timing how long to printf("Hello World!")
I've seen a couple emulators start up in C#, and have the faith it certainly *could* be done (Rift, for example) - however, they got shut down, and I see no other examples beyond a team of young developers getting a client to ping a packet off a dummy loginserver, then the project slips into oblivion.
Conclusion; I am fairly certain whomever picks up the mantle of Ramsey's VGOEMu will be starting all over - regardless of what language they choose. If it's me, it will probably be C#, or C++. I planned to give C# a try, because I do understand it better than C++. However, nothing I understand as far as structuring code will help me understand encrypted packets... which is where 90% of the emulators die an agonizing death. No matter the language, someone still needs to understand packets and encryption - something that still stalls us in a project as mature as EQ2Emulator.net
Thanks for the input, kinshi. Your words are valued here. I personally detest Java, mostly because I understand it less than I do ASM and I am one of those who fully believes compiled code outruns runtime code any day of the week.
As a developer yourself, you should know the incredible amount of processing that is going on when even a single user is logged into a "zone". Thread after thread is spinning away checking all sorts of things. When you load a world with 100, 200, 500 players, all getting checked on constantly, not to mention huge raid battles that need every client as close to in sync as possible - you can NOT beat C++ efficiency. There's a reason it's hard; because it's super-bad-ass.
When IDE creators start "writing code for you", that's when you lose not only development talent, but power and control. C# I could almost abide by, though I still insist it is massively slow compared to a C++ Command-Line app - we're talking under heavy load, not timing how long to printf("Hello World!")
I've seen a couple emulators start up in C#, and have the faith it certainly *could* be done (Rift, for example) - however, they got shut down, and I see no other examples beyond a team of young developers getting a client to ping a packet off a dummy loginserver, then the project slips into oblivion.
Conclusion; I am fairly certain whomever picks up the mantle of Ramsey's VGOEMu will be starting all over - regardless of what language they choose. If it's me, it will probably be C#, or C++. I planned to give C# a try, because I do understand it better than C++. However, nothing I understand as far as structuring code will help me understand encrypted packets... which is where 90% of the emulators die an agonizing death. No matter the language, someone still needs to understand packets and encryption - something that still stalls us in a project as mature as EQ2Emulator.net