Will it be possible to use older builds?
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Will it be possible to use older builds?
I'll admit right off the bat I know nothing of coding or even the basics of how an emulator works. I am, as an old fan of the game, wondering if this will be possible with the emulator. Perhaps my question is a bit premature, but it's a concern of mine nonetheless.
I dislike many changes SOE has made to the game over time, both core mechanics and aesthetics. I doubt I'm alone, but I also wouldn't doubt if I'm in the minority. I won't even go into detail about everything I dislike unless asked to. I'm just wondering about our ability to use older builds. Possibly much older ones.
If the answer is no, for now or for good, I pose two more questions:
1. If we will not be able to use older builds, what will our limitations be in altering the game to our individual liking?
2. Would it at least be possible to utilize older art assets by simple replacement?
(Bonus: In regards to the second question above, how easy would it be to also graft over individual changes like class changes?)
I thank you in advance for your time.
I dislike many changes SOE has made to the game over time, both core mechanics and aesthetics. I doubt I'm alone, but I also wouldn't doubt if I'm in the minority. I won't even go into detail about everything I dislike unless asked to. I'm just wondering about our ability to use older builds. Possibly much older ones.
If the answer is no, for now or for good, I pose two more questions:
1. If we will not be able to use older builds, what will our limitations be in altering the game to our individual liking?
2. Would it at least be possible to utilize older art assets by simple replacement?
(Bonus: In regards to the second question above, how easy would it be to also graft over individual changes like class changes?)
I thank you in advance for your time.
- John Adams
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Re: Will it be possible to use older builds?
By "older builds", I assume you mean Clients. The current development plan is to support Sunset, that's it. The reason why is we do not have data from years ago, although someone with a lot of time on their hands and expert ASM knowledge could reverse the original box client and probably figure a number of things out. That's the generic answer.
I would be interested in a few examples of what was changed to make you dislike Like VG:SOH - because if I know that it's just zone/mob levels or toughness, or even placements, that we can deal with in Content. If an entire mountain range doesn't look good anymore in-game, that's likely nothing we can fix (both extremely broad examples). Give me something more specific, and I'll see what it is you're looking for.
As far as Content, pretty much anything you can put in the game will be at your control (like other Emus). NPCs, Objects, Signs, clicky things, etc. If the Vanguard dev team was anything like EQ2's, they usually leave old model data in the files - so maybe we could re-skin a sword to the way it was in 2007, etc. Again, I'd need specific examples. Just a few of varying types (visuals, functionality, flow, content).
Welcome to the community. Looking forward to this topic, because you're right; you are not alone.
I would be interested in a few examples of what was changed to make you dislike Like VG:SOH - because if I know that it's just zone/mob levels or toughness, or even placements, that we can deal with in Content. If an entire mountain range doesn't look good anymore in-game, that's likely nothing we can fix (both extremely broad examples). Give me something more specific, and I'll see what it is you're looking for.
As far as Content, pretty much anything you can put in the game will be at your control (like other Emus). NPCs, Objects, Signs, clicky things, etc. If the Vanguard dev team was anything like EQ2's, they usually leave old model data in the files - so maybe we could re-skin a sword to the way it was in 2007, etc. Again, I'd need specific examples. Just a few of varying types (visuals, functionality, flow, content).
Welcome to the community. Looking forward to this topic, because you're right; you are not alone.
Re: Will it be possible to use older builds?
Most of my personal grievances with the game are honestly what most would consider small annoyances, or non-issues completely. They all add up for me however, and it makes it very difficult for me to enjoy the game anymore.
A few of my selfish, but main issues are:
Armor/Clothing - At one point they brought a team of interns in for a week and set them loose. What they did was chop up and mangle all of the beautiful models. Robes cheaply cut in half, pauldrons shrunk and floating all over the place, boots shrunk to look like heels etc. It caused such an outcry they reverted about half of the changes, but unfortunately not all of them. (If I get the time here soon I can post an example. Most every NPC still wears the old styles.)
Starting Zones - They mostly did away with them. I loaded the game up recently just to explore around. All of the unique, interesting lore starting zones were condensed into one single place. (e.g. All Thestran races now start in Tursh.) I don't really much mind (or like) the Isle of Dawn, but I hate not having the option to start off in the proper racial area. I understand their reasoning for the change, but I don't like nor agree with it one bit.
Racial Models - I'm not sure anything can be done about this without breaking helmets. However with the "Bringing Sexy Back" patch they redid all of the player models. The poor female Raki have deformed heads now, and I dislike many other changes in general.
Class Changes - A lot of people disliked the original necromancer wraith form. I really liked it. They have now mostly condensed the forms and changes the wraith form into a ghostly skeleton. I'm not really a fan at all. My only other major issue is with rogue. I do believe they've changed a lot of their abilities and now they revolve less around having many items in a special pouch. I really, really enjoyed that aspect for some reason. Ranger arrows are something I miss and would be something I'd bring back if possible, but I can deal with it.
There's plenty more, but things like the KDQ I could ignore and the reindeer NPC I could nix. Things like starting racial alignment and the harvesting nodes, it sounds like those couldn't really be tweaked? Really my ideal server setup would be an early VG feel with a more patched up game. That's just my little fantasy.
Also - thank you for the welcome! Once I get some time to load up I would also like to start packet collecting to help in some way. I would rather Vanguard not live on only in memory.
A few of my selfish, but main issues are:
Armor/Clothing - At one point they brought a team of interns in for a week and set them loose. What they did was chop up and mangle all of the beautiful models. Robes cheaply cut in half, pauldrons shrunk and floating all over the place, boots shrunk to look like heels etc. It caused such an outcry they reverted about half of the changes, but unfortunately not all of them. (If I get the time here soon I can post an example. Most every NPC still wears the old styles.)
Starting Zones - They mostly did away with them. I loaded the game up recently just to explore around. All of the unique, interesting lore starting zones were condensed into one single place. (e.g. All Thestran races now start in Tursh.) I don't really much mind (or like) the Isle of Dawn, but I hate not having the option to start off in the proper racial area. I understand their reasoning for the change, but I don't like nor agree with it one bit.
Racial Models - I'm not sure anything can be done about this without breaking helmets. However with the "Bringing Sexy Back" patch they redid all of the player models. The poor female Raki have deformed heads now, and I dislike many other changes in general.
Class Changes - A lot of people disliked the original necromancer wraith form. I really liked it. They have now mostly condensed the forms and changes the wraith form into a ghostly skeleton. I'm not really a fan at all. My only other major issue is with rogue. I do believe they've changed a lot of their abilities and now they revolve less around having many items in a special pouch. I really, really enjoyed that aspect for some reason. Ranger arrows are something I miss and would be something I'd bring back if possible, but I can deal with it.
There's plenty more, but things like the KDQ I could ignore and the reindeer NPC I could nix. Things like starting racial alignment and the harvesting nodes, it sounds like those couldn't really be tweaked? Really my ideal server setup would be an early VG feel with a more patched up game. That's just my little fantasy.
Also - thank you for the welcome! Once I get some time to load up I would also like to start packet collecting to help in some way. I would rather Vanguard not live on only in memory.
Re: Will it be possible to use older builds?
Hi, just read over the things you're concerned with, anything that is still in the client should be useable. So it depends on what they took out vs just adding a new model and telling the client to use it or whatever. Some of those old models may still be in the client, just not in use. Starting zones and stuff like that are all server side and we will be able to control that.
Basically as far as server/client interaction goes, you can just think of the client as one big 3d UI. Everything you see, the server sends and tells the client to display it. So items, what spells you have, your stats are all things the server sends and we can set ourselves. When you walk up to something in auto attack mode and you see the animation it's not the client telling the server that you attacked something - the server knows how close you are to the mob, and that you're in attack mode and the server tells the client you attacked that mob.
Just some examples - basically mechanics are server side the client just displays information and lets you move around.
Basically as far as server/client interaction goes, you can just think of the client as one big 3d UI. Everything you see, the server sends and tells the client to display it. So items, what spells you have, your stats are all things the server sends and we can set ourselves. When you walk up to something in auto attack mode and you see the animation it's not the client telling the server that you attacked something - the server knows how close you are to the mob, and that you're in attack mode and the server tells the client you attacked that mob.
Just some examples - basically mechanics are server side the client just displays information and lets you move around.
Re: Will it be possible to use older builds?
theFoof - That's good to hear! I've done some rooting around in files before though and haven't been able to find the armor models yet. I think that just might be from my inability to access a particular file type. (I believe the extension was ukx, but it's been a while.)
Most/all of the weapons and shield models I was able to find quite easily, they're essentially crammed into one particularly large file. Same goes for the building models, they're fairly easy. The textures were a bit more tricky for me and I've not gotten to most of them yet. Character models? I don't even know, I've found some files that seem like they should be related but aren't, or at least are very old versions of the model. (For example, the Vulmane head model was the beta version.) There are however some interesting looking files but they're in that ukx format that I can't access.
John Adams - Awesome. Yeah, I plan on sticking around and checking in often. I'm not sure how much I'll be of help but I'll definitely try to the best of my ability.
Most/all of the weapons and shield models I was able to find quite easily, they're essentially crammed into one particularly large file. Same goes for the building models, they're fairly easy. The textures were a bit more tricky for me and I've not gotten to most of them yet. Character models? I don't even know, I've found some files that seem like they should be related but aren't, or at least are very old versions of the model. (For example, the Vulmane head model was the beta version.) There are however some interesting looking files but they're in that ukx format that I can't access.
John Adams - Awesome. Yeah, I plan on sticking around and checking in often. I'm not sure how much I'll be of help but I'll definitely try to the best of my ability.
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Re: Will it be possible to use older builds?
in the original game you could wear armor and weapons not by level but by xp. example. a level 1 ranger could equip a high level bow but it cost more equipment xp. you had 100% to use, say the higher level bow cost 90% equipment xp you only had 10% left for the rest of your items or you could balance it out with more appropriate level equipment. you worked it any way yopu wanted so long as you stayed within the 100% range. is there anyway this can be implemented again? imo this was one of the best thing ive ever seen in an mmo. you were allowed to use what you wanted within limits.
Re: Will it be possible to use older builds?
[quote="Vahras"]
Starting Zones - They mostly did away with them. I loaded the game up recently just to explore around. All of the unique, interesting lore starting zones were condensed into one single place. (e.g. All Thestran races now start in Tursh.) I don't really much mind (or like) the Isle of Dawn, but I hate not having the option to start off in the proper racial area. I understand their reasoning for the change, but I don't like nor agree with it one bit.
[/quote]
As someone who has been logging all the racial starting [diplomacy] quests... this is a sore spot for me. It's like they intended to do it right, but the dinner bell rang so they compiled and called it done.
When you create your toon, you are given the option "Isle of dawn," or "starting city." Which, in theory, is correct... but in practice, starting city is not correct. Lesser Giant starts in Tursh instead of Halgarad for example.
With the exception of two (Gnome & Kurashasa (although it might be that I just can't figure out how for Kurashasa)) you can get to the starting towns in the beginning, but it's not always easy and I've wasted up to an hour on some just getting there. http://vanguard.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Starter_Towns_Guide
I'm just a collector, so take the following with a grain of salt, but I imagine the VGOEmu will work how SWGEmo is planned to to work, which is:
- They are going to build to version X (X being the latest version in VGO's case), which will be "VGOEmu V1" (or something)
- At which point changes that can be made, will be decided by the forums
- As well as having "VGOEmu V1" (and probably subsequent version) available for people who want to run their own / modify on their own.
(again, I'm not involved with that decision for either emu, just what I have seen/expect to see.)
Starting Zones - They mostly did away with them. I loaded the game up recently just to explore around. All of the unique, interesting lore starting zones were condensed into one single place. (e.g. All Thestran races now start in Tursh.) I don't really much mind (or like) the Isle of Dawn, but I hate not having the option to start off in the proper racial area. I understand their reasoning for the change, but I don't like nor agree with it one bit.
[/quote]
As someone who has been logging all the racial starting [diplomacy] quests... this is a sore spot for me. It's like they intended to do it right, but the dinner bell rang so they compiled and called it done.
When you create your toon, you are given the option "Isle of dawn," or "starting city." Which, in theory, is correct... but in practice, starting city is not correct. Lesser Giant starts in Tursh instead of Halgarad for example.
With the exception of two (Gnome & Kurashasa (although it might be that I just can't figure out how for Kurashasa)) you can get to the starting towns in the beginning, but it's not always easy and I've wasted up to an hour on some just getting there. http://vanguard.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Starter_Towns_Guide
I'm just a collector, so take the following with a grain of salt, but I imagine the VGOEmu will work how SWGEmo is planned to to work, which is:
- They are going to build to version X (X being the latest version in VGO's case), which will be "VGOEmu V1" (or something)
- At which point changes that can be made, will be decided by the forums
- As well as having "VGOEmu V1" (and probably subsequent version) available for people who want to run their own / modify on their own.
(again, I'm not involved with that decision for either emu, just what I have seen/expect to see.)
- John Adams
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Re: Will it be possible to use older builds?
In reverse order, snom nailed it. We're building SOE's version of Vanguard at Sunset first, because that is the only information we have available. From there, either other aspiring developers can customize our code in a "classic branch" or if we have time/desire, we (the core team) will implement the old ways as we can.
[quote="snom"]When you create your toon, you are given the option "Isle of dawn," or "starting city." Which, in theory, is correct... but in practice, starting city is not correct. Lesser Giant starts in Tursh instead of Halgarad for example.[/quote]
Original starting locations are possible currently. If you make a Giant DK, he will start in Halgarad, in Derogar's Post (for example). All the other race combos can be added, they just haven't been yet.
Example:
[quote]21:06:59.204 D Character Adding default chunk for race: 3, class: 5 for char_id: 99 (choice: true)
21:06:59.219 D Character Success: SetStartingLocation to 'Isle of Dawn' FROM player choice.
21:06:59.219 I LS Character 'Epokk' created with character ID 99
21:07:38.966 D Character Adding default chunk for race: 9, class: 28 for char_id: 100 (choice: true)
21:07:38.966 D Character Success: SetStartingLocation to 'Halgarad' FROM starting_locations table.
21:07:38.981 I LS Character 'sniffles' created with character ID 100[/quote]
[quote="whitetrash34"]in the original game you could wear armor and weapons not by level but by xp. example. a level 1 ranger could equip a high level bow but it cost more equipment xp. you had 100% to use, say the higher level bow cost 90% equipment xp you only had 10% left for the rest of your items or you could balance it out with more appropriate level equipment. you worked it any way yopu wanted so long as you stayed within the 100% range. is there anyway this can be implemented again? imo this was one of the best thing ive ever seen in an mmo. you were allowed to use what you wanted within limits.[/quote]
I played VG from Feb 2007 through late 2008, and I do not recall this option. Do you have the right MMO? Maybe it was there and I never realized it. Either way, it may be impossible to emulate that since that is not the current data we have available to us. We'll keep it in mind however.
[quote="snom"]When you create your toon, you are given the option "Isle of dawn," or "starting city." Which, in theory, is correct... but in practice, starting city is not correct. Lesser Giant starts in Tursh instead of Halgarad for example.[/quote]
Original starting locations are possible currently. If you make a Giant DK, he will start in Halgarad, in Derogar's Post (for example). All the other race combos can be added, they just haven't been yet.
Example:
[quote]21:06:59.204 D Character Adding default chunk for race: 3, class: 5 for char_id: 99 (choice: true)
21:06:59.219 D Character Success: SetStartingLocation to 'Isle of Dawn' FROM player choice.
21:06:59.219 I LS Character 'Epokk' created with character ID 99
21:07:38.966 D Character Adding default chunk for race: 9, class: 28 for char_id: 100 (choice: true)
21:07:38.966 D Character Success: SetStartingLocation to 'Halgarad' FROM starting_locations table.
21:07:38.981 I LS Character 'sniffles' created with character ID 100[/quote]
[quote="whitetrash34"]in the original game you could wear armor and weapons not by level but by xp. example. a level 1 ranger could equip a high level bow but it cost more equipment xp. you had 100% to use, say the higher level bow cost 90% equipment xp you only had 10% left for the rest of your items or you could balance it out with more appropriate level equipment. you worked it any way yopu wanted so long as you stayed within the 100% range. is there anyway this can be implemented again? imo this was one of the best thing ive ever seen in an mmo. you were allowed to use what you wanted within limits.[/quote]
I played VG from Feb 2007 through late 2008, and I do not recall this option. Do you have the right MMO? Maybe it was there and I never realized it. Either way, it may be impossible to emulate that since that is not the current data we have available to us. We'll keep it in mind however.
Re: Will it be possible to use older builds?
SOE ripped out the equipment XP (and countless other things) to make the game less complex.
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Re: Will it be possible to use older builds?
As Ily pointed out they ripped it out not long after release, I think even before they merged the team pvp server with the free for all pvp server. I figured that probably wouldn't make it back in but hey as long as we vanguard whos complaining