Bug 926: (Developer) I am on quest
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Bug 926: (Developer) I am on quest
Bug ID : 926 - I am on quest Bug Date : 2017/02/12 09:19:52 Assigned To : Developer Priority : Low Category : VGClient Sub-Category : Gameplay: Ability Severity : Standard Reproducible : Every timeDetails:
I am on quest "Fire - 2468." When I burn the supplies in the Bloodhowler camp, stealth does not drop. It should drop. This is similar to my previous bug about harvesting and stealth.
Originated From World: New Telon (1) Chunk : Halgarad (181) Location : -12915 58079 39633
Re: Bug 926: (Developer) I am on quest
Rogue stealth is based on their stance. Even if it did knock them out of stealth in live, most rogues complained about this being a bug due to stance breaking. No other class had to contend with this issue. I don't believe clicking on in-game objects should break rogue stealth. Rangers and Shamans had a weaker version of stealth and so it might knock them out.
Re: Bug 926: (Developer) I am on quest
Ranger stealth broke when they did anything other than walking around, so it made sense to break when interacting with objects. Rogues however rely on stealth and it doesn't break when attacking, so it makes sense that it wouldn't break when interacting. Whether rogue stealth breaking was a bug with Live or a balance decision I dunno.
Re: Bug 926: (Developer) I am on quest
The reason it broke when you interacted with objects was so you just couldn't walk into a lair full of mobs, walk around, and click on all the sparklies you needed for a quest. That's what I was doing at the Bloodhowler camp. There are tents with Bloodhowler spawns at strategic intervals, usually standing close to one of the bags to be burned. I just walked around, clicked them all, and walked out. No class could do that in live.
Invis and sneak all broke in live precisely so classes with invis and sneak were forced to actually complete quests the way they were designed.
BTW, I say that as a player that had over 200 levels of rogue on a half dozen characters. It was my favorite class.
Invis and sneak all broke in live precisely so classes with invis and sneak were forced to actually complete quests the way they were designed.
BTW, I say that as a player that had over 200 levels of rogue on a half dozen characters. It was my favorite class.
Re: Bug 926: (Developer) I am on quest
The solution to the problem shouldn't be to break the stealth, because it doesn't make any sense in context with the class, who are supposed to be the masters of stealth. The solution to the problem is to put in mobs that can see through stealth and make the player earn it. That's what most of the dungeons had anyway (Especially with the bug where a rogue's hitbox for some reason became larger when in stealth, no one was ever able to explain that one to me).
Some items in particular could also be scripted to break stealth, especially if it's something that seems like it would make a lot of noise and draw attention to the characters.
The argument doesn't stand with invis since there were so many places you could exploit very easily with invis, but you couldn't with stealth because it was skill based (And I mean player skill as well as ingame numbers). The devs never did anything about the invis and I'm hoping we can rectify that as well.
I played a rogue as my main for the entire run of VG up to 55 and raided heavily.
I say this specifically because I would enjoy putting some things in game that a rogue needs to help with to make the class more viable. Right now there are some setups for this with the FD classes, but none of the stealth classes. Giving us the option to make it break stealth is much better than having everything automatically break stealth guaranteed.
Some items in particular could also be scripted to break stealth, especially if it's something that seems like it would make a lot of noise and draw attention to the characters.
The argument doesn't stand with invis since there were so many places you could exploit very easily with invis, but you couldn't with stealth because it was skill based (And I mean player skill as well as ingame numbers). The devs never did anything about the invis and I'm hoping we can rectify that as well.
I played a rogue as my main for the entire run of VG up to 55 and raided heavily.
I say this specifically because I would enjoy putting some things in game that a rogue needs to help with to make the class more viable. Right now there are some setups for this with the FD classes, but none of the stealth classes. Giving us the option to make it break stealth is much better than having everything automatically break stealth guaranteed.
Re: Bug 926: (Developer) I am on quest
Not everything breaks stealth guaranteed. We are only talking about quest completion steps here.
Putting see invis mobs all over the place would be very bad, IMO. As a rogue (or any class with invis) I can do a lot of exploration, checking to see if nameds are up, and so forth. I would hate to lose that just so I could click on sparklies. That would be a major nerf of all forms of invis/stealth.
I appreciate your last paragraph about making rogues more viable. However, I don't see how sparklies have anything to do with that. Sparklies are personal quest completion steps. Preserving stealth while clicking on them just makes it easier for rogues to complete certain quests.
I will freely admit that I did not play a rogue past level 50. I played almost nothing past level 50, as I hated the post-50 game. However, from 1-50 the rogue was perhaps the best, most viable class in the game. My rogue could solo stuff my disc couldn't handle, and I never encountered a group that wasn't happy to have me. Good group utility, massive damage, great soloer, and ability to go almost everywhere -- I don't think the class needs any improvement or for things to be made easier. Post 50, it may have been quite different, and I'll happily defer to you on that. However, we're currently doing 1-50.
Of all the classes in VG, the rogue was probably the one in which player skill was the most significant. The difference between the best rogues and the worst rogues was huge. It was immensely rewarding to me to be a good rogue, and I hate the idea of dumbing the class down by things like making sneak never break or having backstab work from the front.
Putting see invis mobs all over the place would be very bad, IMO. As a rogue (or any class with invis) I can do a lot of exploration, checking to see if nameds are up, and so forth. I would hate to lose that just so I could click on sparklies. That would be a major nerf of all forms of invis/stealth.
I appreciate your last paragraph about making rogues more viable. However, I don't see how sparklies have anything to do with that. Sparklies are personal quest completion steps. Preserving stealth while clicking on them just makes it easier for rogues to complete certain quests.
I will freely admit that I did not play a rogue past level 50. I played almost nothing past level 50, as I hated the post-50 game. However, from 1-50 the rogue was perhaps the best, most viable class in the game. My rogue could solo stuff my disc couldn't handle, and I never encountered a group that wasn't happy to have me. Good group utility, massive damage, great soloer, and ability to go almost everywhere -- I don't think the class needs any improvement or for things to be made easier. Post 50, it may have been quite different, and I'll happily defer to you on that. However, we're currently doing 1-50.
Of all the classes in VG, the rogue was probably the one in which player skill was the most significant. The difference between the best rogues and the worst rogues was huge. It was immensely rewarding to me to be a good rogue, and I hate the idea of dumbing the class down by things like making sneak never break or having backstab work from the front.
Re: Bug 926: (Developer) I am on quest
We have completely different experiences with the Rogue class. I played the rogue at launch and got to level 50 shortly after. The rogue class, during that time, was the hardest to play. It was the second to worst soloer (Surpassed only by the warrior) and it was extremely group dependent on *everything*. I had great difficulty finding groups because no one wanted a rogue and the liability that rogues brought to the table. At some point, I believe when they did the first rogue revamp, they made it a lot simpler and easier to play. I rolled a rogue on IOD in 2012 just to see the differences in leveling and I was really surprised by how simple (And by extension) how unfun it was.
It used to be that if you had more than one mob on you, you had to be *really good* to get away alive. But my newbie rolled rogue could faceroll them.
The most fun I had with my rogue was going through dungeons to help my group scout ahead, or if we had a wipe, I was the one that held the rez stones, or the one that would drag tombstones back to the group. I did this *a lot* in APW. This made me immensely proud to play a rogue and also have the skill to get away with it.
When I picture a rogue sneaking through a dungeon, I do not mean completely unobstructed with no stealth breaking - that is not fun at all. I want the challenge to be able to sneak through and stay hidden and survive. If you ever had a rogue sneak down to the bottom of NN, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Even at level 55 in full POTA t3, best gear and abilities in the game, this made my heart race. And I did it a lot for the griffon quest. And I loved it. It was even more fun if I got caught and had to survive. VG is at its best when you're fighting to /survive/, not to surpass content.
I don't want any rogue to use stealth to surpass content, just like I didn't like seeing all the invis classes just roll with impunity past so much content. And in level 55 areas (Such as POTA, COB, OT etc), Invis was king. You could literally invis through everything, but the rogue could DO NOTHING, because everything saw through stealth.
So I'm not advocating at all making this class easier. But I see no reason why interactive objects (Which goes beyond just quest sparklies) should automatically knock a rogue out of stealth. Ranger, yes, Shaman, yes, Rogue? No. I advocate for the rogue to be able to backstab from the front, because if you have a mob that's bouncing around, it makes no sense for an attack to *just outright fail* because you launched an attack but oh no, it's not the back, the rogue is unable to do anything! It will hit and hurt but not as bad.
I want to make the Rogue back the way it was and the way it should have been before SOE messed it up. I want the rogue to have to make their own poisons again, not just buy them and use them willy-nilly. I want Fun with Lint to drop extremely rarely. I didn't get it until level 42. And Fun With Lint also made a huge difference in Rogue-soloing viability. I want the rogue to have to make cautious, but decisive actions to increase their success.
So I think we want the same things, but we both have very different experiences in playing the class. And trust me when I say that 45+, the rogue started to become a liability, whereas the Sorc was the one everyone wanted. Without tombstones, the rogue class is even more useless.
Also, I'm not just saying this as an individual trying to uber up the rogue class. I spent many years in game getting to know the other rogue mains, and made many, many posts on the official forums with suggestions on the rogue class. I spoke with Veltan in some detail before starting on the rogue class in VGO. I consider him to be one of the top rogues in VG. This is not at all new territory for me, and finally I'll get a chance to make right a lot of what SOE/Silius got wrong with this class.
It used to be that if you had more than one mob on you, you had to be *really good* to get away alive. But my newbie rolled rogue could faceroll them.
The most fun I had with my rogue was going through dungeons to help my group scout ahead, or if we had a wipe, I was the one that held the rez stones, or the one that would drag tombstones back to the group. I did this *a lot* in APW. This made me immensely proud to play a rogue and also have the skill to get away with it.
When I picture a rogue sneaking through a dungeon, I do not mean completely unobstructed with no stealth breaking - that is not fun at all. I want the challenge to be able to sneak through and stay hidden and survive. If you ever had a rogue sneak down to the bottom of NN, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Even at level 55 in full POTA t3, best gear and abilities in the game, this made my heart race. And I did it a lot for the griffon quest. And I loved it. It was even more fun if I got caught and had to survive. VG is at its best when you're fighting to /survive/, not to surpass content.
I don't want any rogue to use stealth to surpass content, just like I didn't like seeing all the invis classes just roll with impunity past so much content. And in level 55 areas (Such as POTA, COB, OT etc), Invis was king. You could literally invis through everything, but the rogue could DO NOTHING, because everything saw through stealth.
So I'm not advocating at all making this class easier. But I see no reason why interactive objects (Which goes beyond just quest sparklies) should automatically knock a rogue out of stealth. Ranger, yes, Shaman, yes, Rogue? No. I advocate for the rogue to be able to backstab from the front, because if you have a mob that's bouncing around, it makes no sense for an attack to *just outright fail* because you launched an attack but oh no, it's not the back, the rogue is unable to do anything! It will hit and hurt but not as bad.
I want to make the Rogue back the way it was and the way it should have been before SOE messed it up. I want the rogue to have to make their own poisons again, not just buy them and use them willy-nilly. I want Fun with Lint to drop extremely rarely. I didn't get it until level 42. And Fun With Lint also made a huge difference in Rogue-soloing viability. I want the rogue to have to make cautious, but decisive actions to increase their success.
So I think we want the same things, but we both have very different experiences in playing the class. And trust me when I say that 45+, the rogue started to become a liability, whereas the Sorc was the one everyone wanted. Without tombstones, the rogue class is even more useless.
Also, I'm not just saying this as an individual trying to uber up the rogue class. I spent many years in game getting to know the other rogue mains, and made many, many posts on the official forums with suggestions on the rogue class. I spoke with Veltan in some detail before starting on the rogue class in VGO. I consider him to be one of the top rogues in VG. This is not at all new territory for me, and finally I'll get a chance to make right a lot of what SOE/Silius got wrong with this class.
Re: Bug 926: (Developer) I am on quest
I do think we want the same things. I fully agree about poisons. I just see picking up sparklies while stealthed as bypassing content.
As for backstab, it does make sense to me that what would work for massive damage from behind might not work at all from the front -- think of reaching around to slit someone's throat; how is that going to work from the front if he sees it coming? The main reason I bring this up again is because my latest character is a recreation of one of my rogues. His backstab from behind is doing in the 80s and from the front in the 60s, while Wicked Strike is doing in the 30s. If BS is going to work from the front, it should be less effective than WS. The idea of massive damage from behind is based on the premise that you are exploiting a vulnerability that exists from behind and/or you're taking advantage of the fact that the mob doesn't see it coming. Neither of those is true if the attack comes from the front.
In any case, if we're going to have backstab work from the front, I would at least like to see the damage be minimal, at least lower than QS. At least when soloing, it takes skill to get behind the mob (e.g. stun and circle strafe) and having BS work from the front reduces the need for player skill. BTW, why do you want BS to work from the front and not Ravage and the Shank line of finishers as well?
I'm not sure when the rogue revamp happened, but the incident I'm about to recount probably happened during Vanguard's first year. My main, a psy, who was there on day 1, was only in her 20s, soloing the cultists on the hill north of Silverlake. Except for the named, all the cultists are 3-dots. The static spawns are in pairs. My psi was working slowing through the pairs, mezzing one, snare kiting the other, and then going back to the first. It was slow, and I was getting beat up occasionally.
Then a rogue showed up who was the same level as me. I had heard how bad rogues were at soloing, so I kind of sniggered, "what is he doing here?" But he proceeded to sneak up on a pair of 3-dots, mezzed one (blackjack, as I would learn later), launched an opening attack at the other, and it was dead almost instantly. He then turned to the first one, and repeated the kill. Rinse and repeat on every other pair of 3-dots in the area. He was literally killing 2 3-dots every 15-20 seconds, and he was only that slow because he was waiting for abilities to refresh. I had never seen anything like it. I created my first rogue the next day.
As for backstab, it does make sense to me that what would work for massive damage from behind might not work at all from the front -- think of reaching around to slit someone's throat; how is that going to work from the front if he sees it coming? The main reason I bring this up again is because my latest character is a recreation of one of my rogues. His backstab from behind is doing in the 80s and from the front in the 60s, while Wicked Strike is doing in the 30s. If BS is going to work from the front, it should be less effective than WS. The idea of massive damage from behind is based on the premise that you are exploiting a vulnerability that exists from behind and/or you're taking advantage of the fact that the mob doesn't see it coming. Neither of those is true if the attack comes from the front.
In any case, if we're going to have backstab work from the front, I would at least like to see the damage be minimal, at least lower than QS. At least when soloing, it takes skill to get behind the mob (e.g. stun and circle strafe) and having BS work from the front reduces the need for player skill. BTW, why do you want BS to work from the front and not Ravage and the Shank line of finishers as well?
I'm not sure when the rogue revamp happened, but the incident I'm about to recount probably happened during Vanguard's first year. My main, a psy, who was there on day 1, was only in her 20s, soloing the cultists on the hill north of Silverlake. Except for the named, all the cultists are 3-dots. The static spawns are in pairs. My psi was working slowing through the pairs, mezzing one, snare kiting the other, and then going back to the first. It was slow, and I was getting beat up occasionally.
Then a rogue showed up who was the same level as me. I had heard how bad rogues were at soloing, so I kind of sniggered, "what is he doing here?" But he proceeded to sneak up on a pair of 3-dots, mezzed one (blackjack, as I would learn later), launched an opening attack at the other, and it was dead almost instantly. He then turned to the first one, and repeated the kill. Rinse and repeat on every other pair of 3-dots in the area. He was literally killing 2 3-dots every 15-20 seconds, and he was only that slow because he was waiting for abilities to refresh. I had never seen anything like it. I created my first rogue the next day.
Re: Bug 926: (Developer) I am on quest
Right now backstab from the front should be doing much less damage than from the rear. I see it as like a grazing nick instead of a deadly, surgical precision strike. If it's not doing less damage, there's a problem and that's not working as intended. What I'd like to set it up is that the Backstab-Front would do minimal damage (perhaps something along the lines of Kneebreak) and cannot crit. And backstab from the rear would work just like in live.
Faux continues to work on the classes and I'm still learning the scripting, so the current state of any class's abilities are by no means final. So there's always room for improvement. Right now, I feel like most classes have placeholders so they work, but nothing is near a polished state.
My gripe with Frontal-BS is from grouping with Dread Knights, who quite often jump-turned the mob. Or from playing with classes that frequently pulled aggro (monks and Sorcs). There are also many mobs in game that switch targets as a matter of strategy, and if they do that, the rogue class loses very significant DPS on this. And I don't mean "Aw I can't use my backstab". I mean "I'm constantly trying to use backstab but people keep turning the mob just as I hit it and it uses up the cooldown". In almost all strats, you want the tank infront of the mob, and everyone else behind it. When any of those people pulled the mob, they'd destroy your DPS. This happens with great frequency.
Making Ravage, Shank, and Shiv work from the front I think is making the class easy. Backstab from the front seemed like a reasonable compromise.
Also Rogues get Smoke Trick at level 18. It's not hard to macro in Smoke Trick + ravage or Blackjack to have an intense opening kill/stun. Mez darts could only be used out of combat and they were severely bugged, often breaking after just 3 seconds. Macroing smoke trick makes it quite easy to get behind a mob, and don't forget the Ploy ability.
If I remember right, the first rogue revamp was in 2009. The rogue you saw probably had HL gear and might have been quite lucky enough to get the Fun With Lint book. But rogues were also much easier to solo at the lower levels. Also consider that the mobs in Silverlake were also fairly simple. That rogue against a Shadowhound of the same level would be in trouble. That rogue against an ettercap of the same level would be dead. I used to grind on those mobs when I was in my early 20's as I found them fairly easy to kill, lots of them, with minimal risk. When you hit the brick wall of progression in the late 20's-30's, shit got real and the class became very, very difficult to solo, even in open territory.
I couldn't solo very well until I got the Mask of the Feral Warrior and Fun with Lint, that saved my life many, many times. The whole premise of the rogue class is "Kill it before it kills you". They are extremely high DPS so I'm not surprised a lower level rogue could kill 2 3 dots so easily.
And the psi is not a direct damage class like the rogue is. The Psi's power is in their dots. You could load up lots of mobs with dots and run around until they die. I used to be able to kill the silverlake mobs on my cleric much faster than any other class, including my rogue. And the way I did it was fairly simple: Grab 15 mobs. Put on your HOT. Heal yourself occassionally. Use ward shield. And keep up Aegis of Blades. It will take a long time for the cleric to kill one. But the cleric can kill 15 in the same amount of time, thus making it faster for powerleveling. This is however, extremely boring.
Another thing to keep in mind that is rogue stealth is the rogue's *stance*. The rogue is the only class that can be so easily, and so frequently kicked out of their stance. I know some specialty mobs could do it to tanks, but those were few and far between. The rogue risked this and part of the skill of the rogue was to stay in stealth.
I never, never try to base my thoughts on gameplay on the exceptional skill of one or two players, fighting fairly specific mobs. That would never, ever end well. I saw that a lot on sorc, monk and cleric posts from the OVF as well. People would use one exceptionally played cleric as if it were the standard for the entire class. That makes it not very fair for the rest of the players.
And I'll be very, very honest, when people tell me they didn't play end game, it tends to throw up a red flag in my mind when they want to talk about class balance, because it becomes very, very important at end game - and what we set up in the lower levels should be the standard that leads us into end game.
Faux continues to work on the classes and I'm still learning the scripting, so the current state of any class's abilities are by no means final. So there's always room for improvement. Right now, I feel like most classes have placeholders so they work, but nothing is near a polished state.
My gripe with Frontal-BS is from grouping with Dread Knights, who quite often jump-turned the mob. Or from playing with classes that frequently pulled aggro (monks and Sorcs). There are also many mobs in game that switch targets as a matter of strategy, and if they do that, the rogue class loses very significant DPS on this. And I don't mean "Aw I can't use my backstab". I mean "I'm constantly trying to use backstab but people keep turning the mob just as I hit it and it uses up the cooldown". In almost all strats, you want the tank infront of the mob, and everyone else behind it. When any of those people pulled the mob, they'd destroy your DPS. This happens with great frequency.
Making Ravage, Shank, and Shiv work from the front I think is making the class easy. Backstab from the front seemed like a reasonable compromise.
Also Rogues get Smoke Trick at level 18. It's not hard to macro in Smoke Trick + ravage or Blackjack to have an intense opening kill/stun. Mez darts could only be used out of combat and they were severely bugged, often breaking after just 3 seconds. Macroing smoke trick makes it quite easy to get behind a mob, and don't forget the Ploy ability.
If I remember right, the first rogue revamp was in 2009. The rogue you saw probably had HL gear and might have been quite lucky enough to get the Fun With Lint book. But rogues were also much easier to solo at the lower levels. Also consider that the mobs in Silverlake were also fairly simple. That rogue against a Shadowhound of the same level would be in trouble. That rogue against an ettercap of the same level would be dead. I used to grind on those mobs when I was in my early 20's as I found them fairly easy to kill, lots of them, with minimal risk. When you hit the brick wall of progression in the late 20's-30's, shit got real and the class became very, very difficult to solo, even in open territory.
I couldn't solo very well until I got the Mask of the Feral Warrior and Fun with Lint, that saved my life many, many times. The whole premise of the rogue class is "Kill it before it kills you". They are extremely high DPS so I'm not surprised a lower level rogue could kill 2 3 dots so easily.
And the psi is not a direct damage class like the rogue is. The Psi's power is in their dots. You could load up lots of mobs with dots and run around until they die. I used to be able to kill the silverlake mobs on my cleric much faster than any other class, including my rogue. And the way I did it was fairly simple: Grab 15 mobs. Put on your HOT. Heal yourself occassionally. Use ward shield. And keep up Aegis of Blades. It will take a long time for the cleric to kill one. But the cleric can kill 15 in the same amount of time, thus making it faster for powerleveling. This is however, extremely boring.
Another thing to keep in mind that is rogue stealth is the rogue's *stance*. The rogue is the only class that can be so easily, and so frequently kicked out of their stance. I know some specialty mobs could do it to tanks, but those were few and far between. The rogue risked this and part of the skill of the rogue was to stay in stealth.
I never, never try to base my thoughts on gameplay on the exceptional skill of one or two players, fighting fairly specific mobs. That would never, ever end well. I saw that a lot on sorc, monk and cleric posts from the OVF as well. People would use one exceptionally played cleric as if it were the standard for the entire class. That makes it not very fair for the rest of the players.
And I'll be very, very honest, when people tell me they didn't play end game, it tends to throw up a red flag in my mind when they want to talk about class balance, because it becomes very, very important at end game - and what we set up in the lower levels should be the standard that leads us into end game.
Re: Bug 926: (Developer) I am on quest
I wish I had started a rogue sooner. I didn't get around to it until not long before sunset, so I barely managed to get it to 55. My experience was that rogue was very easy to solo with up to the 20's or so, then it started to become more group dependent since it could no longer nuke mobs in a couple seconds. I still had a lot of fun with it though, especially if I could find a group to run a dungeon with. I had nearly the opposite with the Disc, which was nearly face-roll easy, especially around end-game. A disc played properly could easily get through nearly any dungeon with few if any fights thanks to FD, HoTs, and reactive heals.
Perhaps stealth breaking from interacting with objects could be scripted into the interaction, so it can either break or not depending on what's being done. Something like picking up an object from a table could keep stealth, while destroying/burning objects could break it due to the noise/activity required. Add in a few see-stealth mobs scattered about to increase the player skill required and it becomes more interesting to try and sneak around. Rather than strolling through with impunity and dealing with only one/two mobs near the clicky, the player could have to plan their route a bit to avoid the see-stealth mobs and time their interactions.
The rogue stealth ties directly with their stance as well, so if it gets broken the rogue has much lower DPS and reduced chance to survive. It may not matter much in solo/group dungeons, but at end game it becomes a huge disadvantage to the rogue whenever stealth is broken. It was one of the things I hated about playing my rogue, even mid game.
Backstab was another thing that annoyed me, being unable to attack just because the mob is facing me. It makes sense to me to have the ability at least do *something*. It happened more than once where I didn't notice the mob had turned (focusing on my health/abilities or whatever), and wasted a few seconds because the attack didn't trigger. Becomes a larger deal with raids where it may be hard to tell the mob's facing direction, especially if you're busy trying to communicate with the other players.
Same thing with the finishers. Accidentally hitting the wrong button and wasting a finish line because the mob turned on me right then happened many times. Have it do less than the other finish lines if from the front is fine IMO, as long as it's not a loss of the entire damage because the mob turned or I just happened to hit the wrong button.
Perhaps stealth breaking from interacting with objects could be scripted into the interaction, so it can either break or not depending on what's being done. Something like picking up an object from a table could keep stealth, while destroying/burning objects could break it due to the noise/activity required. Add in a few see-stealth mobs scattered about to increase the player skill required and it becomes more interesting to try and sneak around. Rather than strolling through with impunity and dealing with only one/two mobs near the clicky, the player could have to plan their route a bit to avoid the see-stealth mobs and time their interactions.
The rogue stealth ties directly with their stance as well, so if it gets broken the rogue has much lower DPS and reduced chance to survive. It may not matter much in solo/group dungeons, but at end game it becomes a huge disadvantage to the rogue whenever stealth is broken. It was one of the things I hated about playing my rogue, even mid game.
Backstab was another thing that annoyed me, being unable to attack just because the mob is facing me. It makes sense to me to have the ability at least do *something*. It happened more than once where I didn't notice the mob had turned (focusing on my health/abilities or whatever), and wasted a few seconds because the attack didn't trigger. Becomes a larger deal with raids where it may be hard to tell the mob's facing direction, especially if you're busy trying to communicate with the other players.
Same thing with the finishers. Accidentally hitting the wrong button and wasting a finish line because the mob turned on me right then happened many times. Have it do less than the other finish lines if from the front is fine IMO, as long as it's not a loss of the entire damage because the mob turned or I just happened to hit the wrong button.