Brad McQuaids New MMORPG Pantheon (video)

nauseous*

The KS was not fine man, it was lacking a lot of elements, it started off poorly but after they got advice from players and most likely Richard/boogie they stepped it up and started posting more updates, but it still wasn't enough, there was nothing to tempt people into wanting to pledge and support it, no game footage except for Vu designing some outside area with place holder artwork/textures and a dungeon with mainly placeholder textures, they come with Unity game engine, it is not showing of what Pantheon is all about, so they did fail my friend and they know it, but I don't really mind that they failed, it is a shame but now they have learned a lesson and can move onto using those learning and going full out with their website funding (which the site is looking great by the way).

Now we will get down to the serious business of raising funds and seeking investors, as I said, I have no doubt that the game will be made but the KS project was very sloppy and showed their inexperience, it's not having a go at them, it's just calling it what it is and not trying to sugar coat it like so many have done on KS and the forums.

The trolls always go away if people stop feeding them, there was only a couple of trolls but they were fed by a big chunks of fanatic supporters, which was a big mistake for them to engage them in debate or conversation, they will never win and all they do is add fuel to the fire, ignore them and let KS and the team deal with them and it would of never got that badly out of hand.

Brad has made mistakes and I personally think it's time to let him have another go, he is only human, as are we all, he doesn't deserve as much negativity as he is getting in my personal opinion but others don't see it that way and feel burned/betrayed by him, so you can't tell them what they should be thinking or feeling or what they can or can't say about him, he is a grown man and will deal with it and them, hopefully by creating the next best old school MMO to have ever existed...(lol a little too enthusiastic there but was tongue in cheek for those who take things too seriously).

It's time to move on and forget the bad KS campaign and focus on making this game work and help it to get funded on the official website, the more we can support it and back it financially, the more input we will have on it's creation, the team are already very active on the website and are speaking with us all the time via forums, PMs, chat etc, it's really good to see and be a part of, I hope we can help to build an awesome game, which hopefully we will all be fully immersed playing the game and have forgotten about all the negative crap that has just happened.

It was lacking nothing! People need to understand what a kickstarter is! MOST of them are a vision and some concept art! I'm sorry if this was their first time on KS but that's the truth! We had 54 updates in 40 days! We had AMA's Q&A's, Interviews, we got information about classes, races, lore, the world, we seen concept art, screen shots, even placeholder GAMEPLAY! But still, that wasn't enough.

People just had to complain non stop and argue, and bring up Brads past. They talked about very personal things! You DO NOT back a project then bash it and it's developers! I seen a lot of people type something along these lines "that's it, i'm done! good luck" and they left! Never to return, because they got sick and tired of the self entitled whiners!

The community is very much responsible for a large part of this failing. They had no faith where faith is needed! They gave little support where support was needed! They were perfectly content to pledge their money and complain in the comment section arguing like children amongst themselves. Stopping ONLY when a dev came in, like a child becoming docile when mommy or daddy enter the room. And as soon as the devs left, they started right back up again!

Now i'm not saying people didn't do good things, and promote the game. They did, but they were overshadowed by the negative community members. I did everything i could. I made videos, i made threads, heck i made THIS thread! What did they do? They complained. Some of them SOME of them offered good constructive criticisms but they were very far and few between.

I know Pantheon will be made, but i will not sit there and accept that VRI failed us! They did much more than many other kickstarters. Niche, is niche! They told us from the get go they were targeting a small player base of hardcore, oldschool mmorpg enthusiasts. The audience was not a big one, and the poisonous community did not help.

Oh also i agree that ignoring the trolls would have helped. But people didn't do that. I asked people to please stop but they persisted. They ruined their own lands. I didn't feed these trolls, i did for a brief moment get caught up in it with them, but then i backed away once i realized what had happened. Now that the damage is done, and we are moving on, i think people need to know it wasn't VRI that failed them, they failed themselves more than anything.

If they have to play the blame game and not accept that sometimes things just don't work out, so be it. I blame them for it. I am ready to move on and see this game get funded, but like i said, i won't stand for blaming VRI.

I don't agree.

Their whole theme behind this mmo is/was 'a strong focus on group-oriented content' and all they have are updates/videos/charts of everything except how grouping will work in their game. If your selling point is the group experience, then SELL the Pantheon group experience. I don't want to see copy-pasted races/classes, or someone modeling monsters/terrain.

I want to see Pantheon grouping.

Personally, I was expecting, after seeing the first video with pre-alpha combat footage, they'd make another 10 minute video with a very small dungeon, maybe 3 people playing 3 diff classes, and have that group participate in 3 different dungeon events, so they could show how their gameplay will be "unlike any other [grouping] experience out there." i.e. Contrasting how these type of events normally play out in EQ/WoW/Rift, etc... and how it'll work in Pantheon, and why the Pantheon way not only is much better, but makes so much sense its baffling why their ideas are not incorporated in modern mmo's.

I didn't see that.

You really need to take the blindfold off mate, it's great to be a fan and support something, I do, but blindly defending it with the delusion that they are doing everything just fine is bad for the community.

They posted an amount that was well under what it takes to make an MMORPG and failed to show people what theya re paying for, they didn't show anything that related to what the game was about other than classes/races, which every MMO has, as Dielle said, it is group based, so where was the group based updates?

Don't get me wrong, I am backing this game for a lot of money and have been subscribing to the forums as a champion since it was opened to us with a phase 1 code, I was one of the first 1-2 people to sub but I can still see the mistakes they made on Kickstarter and it was not well thought out or delivered properly, it got better as time went on but it was too late.

The community didn't do anything wrong, now you are throwing the blame around, that really needs to stop. VR messed up, they have admitted they made mistakes and were working to overhaul their funding idea's, which are starting to look good, they should of done this before launching a KS campaign.

But please, don't blindly turn away from their mistakes and defend them vehemently, it does the game or the community no good at all, it labels us all as over passionate fanboi's and that is not a title I want to stick because of a few outspoken self proclaimed Pantheon defenders.

They made mistakes and are correcting them now, so it is time to move on and stop feeding the trolls and the negativity, but you and people like you defending them so heavily are making everyone look bad, it needs to stop.

This is precisely the type of action that I am presently looking for when it comes to Pantheon. On our Facebook group, I asked Brad a direct question regarding the lessons learned from his past games and the state of them both at launch and at present. I would also be interested in hearing Silius speak to the lessons that he has learned from his interactions with the community here and the choices he has made with Vanguard (ie. closing Mekalia).

I, personally, feel that one would be really hard pressed to find anyone in the gaming community that does not see that Brad has some amazing ideas regarding gaming and game creation. However, I do not plan to take a walk down memory lane...and I do not think that I am alone! One strike, two strikes...I am not eager to swing for the third. I want to see lessons learned expressed and shown in the actions taken moving forward - not pledges, like those given in the past, to change and correct/make good.

I feel that Kilsin is precisely correct in that supporting a person/team does not mean agreeing with or blindly defending their actions, most especially when we have seen the errors in the from the past, moreover a number of those errors repeated. Supporting a cause/group/project means offering a perspective that can help to achieve the goals and promises made and that has to be a perspective not concerned with only giving positive feedback but highlighting the negative so that it can be transformed to a positive. Should our niche of the gaming community, those of us who are seeking challenging content and a more "old school" game just speak of the positives and not expect, no...demand better than what we have had in the past, we will never get the game that we are seeking. Projects will always fall short and we will have to thank ourselves for our contribution to the state of today's gaming - and contribution by lack of action is still a contribution.

I am eager to see more about Pantheon and want to support the project, and very much want to help support some of the developers on the team as I feel they have great talent and are great folks, but I feel that the data that I have been given thus far does not allow me an educated enough platform upon which to make a decision to try to invest.

The feedback that we are being given now is that lessons have been learned and forward momentum is the path - so let's stick to that and give honest, critically needed feedback that can help. Only then can we help to make the game that we want to see and play, for a very long time.

I can tell you guys didn't spend much time in the kickstarter comment section. It was ridiculous. They derailed the entire effort. Now they are blaming VRI. Don't agree with me if you want, but i know what i seen and talking about Brads personal life was not constructive and that was THE single worst comment section i've ever seen in any kickstarter.

There is a difference in constructive feedback and trolling! Many people used the "constructive criticism" card as a shield to troll and argue, i'm sorry if you can't see that. I love that it's called "blindly following or defending" when you tell someone they did a good job rather than spew bile about them.

Part of the reason this failed was a lack of faith in the project due to what? Vanguard? A game you are all playing and participating in the forums right now!? Are you guys kidding me? Microsoft pulled the funding and that's Brads fault why? Either support the project or don't but don't pledge and then argue, troll and act like a child like many people did. Now i'm not saying ANY of you did that, but please understand that it DID go on and a lot!

We had people pledging 10k then pulling it over and over and over! That sort of behavior really hurt things, and it won't continue on the official site since you can't post unless you pay.

Did they get good feedback? Sure they did but how much VS how much trolling and negative bs? I get they aren't perfect or they could have done more, you could always do more, but throwing stones now... come on man! Have some faith in Brad and VRI i mean 450k out of 800k in 40 or so days isn't bad! It's not what they wanted but it isn't bad either.

Show your support and pledge on the official site, i hope i see you guys there!

I think you are scapegoating the hostile comment section for their inability to communicate why the gaming world needs Pantheon. The gaming community may have identified problems with current MMO's... Brad and his team might be sympathetic to that... but I still was never shown why or how Pantheon is going to be the solution to them.

I'm not sure even Brad knows not only what he's talking about, but how to make it relevant in this day and age. He was found frequenting message boards, post kickstarter launch, asking for input as to what exactly makes a good grouping game. Shouldn't you have already identified those problems, brainstormed solutions, and put forward the best solutions in a communicable form before beginning the funding campaign?

I personally wasn't interested in funding a research project into what makes old school MMO's magical, and then hope that this team would find the right way to bring that back.

I am going to make one final comment, as I am not interested in a the flexing of one's internet muscles - I have been a loyal Vanguard player since open beta and my guild still remains here. Before that, I started playing Everquest in 1999 and continued, loyally until 2006 when I move to Vanguard. I have always had at least one account subscribed to these brain children of Mr. McQaid, therefore as a paying customer I have more than ample right to discuss, should I choose to, and be concerned over any aspect that will effect the product for which I am paying monthly. When a company or an individual allows their pledges and promises to a paying customer base to be effected by actions in their personal lives, then yes that is a very large trust to be gained back. McQaid himself commented about how many emails he receives asking about the lessons the experiences of the last nearly two decades have taught him and how he is taking learned actions based upon those experiences...being that the such a large portion of the community is still asking these questions then it lends to the reality that the proof is not yet in the pudding. If someone chooses to be more forgiving of the actions of another, fair enough, but the reality of humanity is that there are ample numbers of people who are realistic - not just those who are optimistic and pessimistic. Realists tends to appreciate action and the proof over promises.

For one to expect a devoted customer base to levy responsibility on a company for the actions put to their player base in changing and altering a product for which the customers paid and had received extended promises, one must also expect that the individuals responsible step up and accept their responsibility in such too. Society is not at fault for the ills of "society" as each individual is a component to society and therefore taking personal responsibility and changing the actions of self effects the whole. In a business sense, there is a final say giver and laying responsibility there is important and necessary - but when a person expects the loyalty and financial support of a devoted group to be extended to them based solely upon their name and reputation, then he/she must expect and understand every facet of his/her name and reputation are going to be put on the scales before that loyalty is given.

Further, making assumptions about the investment of time that others have put into researching this project is ill fated - as it assumes that anyone who read/heard/saw what one sees that those people too would share the opinions of the one. Perspective is and will always be relative.

I think discussion is a good thing, but i don't agree with what took place in the comments section on KS. I also think people need to have at least some faith for a kickstarter to work. I know most of us are passionate here, i respect you all. But i do not respect the trolls that took over the comment section of the KS. It was very sad, and i guess i held a lot of them up higher than i should have being that ours is an older and more mature/friendly community.

The point of the video i was trying to make is that the comment section was not the place to argue and be critical. Sure constructive criticism helps, but very little of that took place. Instead as the project began to wind down, people started playing the blame game and that helps no one. Like i said, sure they could always have done more but discussion and just plain finger pointing are two very different things.

I myself am ready to move on. I talked to Brad very briefly about the cynisism in the comment section and he pretty much told me to ignore it. I agree, what i did was not the best course of action but they got under my skin so i called them out. It didn't help the situation so it was quite pointless.

I am very new to Vanguard so i didn't have to endure the bugs, but it's one of the best games i have had the pleasure of playing and i know Pantheon is going to be amazing.

You shouldn't ever "assume", it's a very bad trait people have. I checked the KS and the updates/comments section multiple times a day and posted very little because it was a cluster &%^$ of fanboi's vs trolls, it was embarrassing to watch, you, Artic, Popsicle and others feeding them helped the issue continue for much longer that it was necessary, you really need to take a step back and have a think about how you played a part in that continuing.

You cannot argue with trolls, you just simply cannot, they attack your weak points and feed from your emotions, to try and debate them is a sign of weakness and emotional instability and it showed quite badly in the comments. They were good trolls, they played with your emotions and got the worst out of everyone, their job was a success because people like you fed them and let them get that behaviour out of you.

Don't try to throw the blame, you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of and it needs to stop.

VG is considered a big failure no matter which way you look at it, just because a bunch of us liked it enough to put up with all the bugs and crap for years doesn't mean it was a great game, it should of been much much more than what it turned out to be.

Brad even said it himself and you still fight to defend VR? I don't get it, Brad said that only a handful of other games have successfully funded millions of dollars from scratch...an idea...he mentioned Star Citizen as one of those and realised he was taking a huge gamble, one that they were not ready for (his words in his letter) so you need to take off the blind fold and see it for what it really is, a mistake that was learned from and now to put those learnings into action and move on.

Then you shouldn't of fed them by continuing to defend the game, the team and Brad, to people who don't care about any of them, that is what they wanted and that is what you and others gave them. Sadly you are part of the cause.

Again, you can't tell people on a public site how they can and can't act or speak, they have just as much right to be critical and skeptical as you do to have faith and confidence in the same project.

Brad was wise to tell you to ignore it, if that had of been the case from the word go, none of this would have gotten to the point of needing to be addressed.

Even being new, the bugs are still there, flight, speed, chunk, rift, clipping, stairs, quests, buffs, you name it and it will have bugs to some degree, a lot have been fixed but bugs still exist from beta, which is very poor on SOE's behalf.

Pantheon will be what we help the devs make it to be, take that on board before lashing out next time mate.

If you're talking about the kickstarter i didn't feed anyone. The video was made in response to them AFTER the kickstarter failed. I have nothing more to say on this matter and i've moved on. I suggest you do the same, thank you for your time on this thread and goodbye.

You make a claim, then didn't want to hear that you were part of the problem, then you make an excuse, then ran away...

If you are going to make yourself look silly by defending something, when it is clearly in the wrong, and has even admitted it, at least have the balls to stick around and face up to your words and admit wrong, running away is a very weak sign.

I hope you learned a lesson, because if you do something similar in the future, you will be put in your place again mate, you meant well, I know that but it worked against you because it makes everyone look bad when you try to defend something that doesn't need defending and when that something was clearly mistaken and and admits it, that just amplifies the problem.

I'm not going to argue with you or try to somehow change your mind, the kickstarter was trolled and there is no denying that. I'm not saying everyone did it but it did happen and it didn't help. If you think i look silly i really don't care man. I was not a part of the problem because you see I didn't troll the kickstarter, the video came after it was dead, i instead decided to make videos, and post threads like THIS ONE with over 3k views (in case you failed to notice)to help spread awareness.

This is one of MANY threads i started to bring people into the kickstarter, did you start any threads? Did you make any videos to promote the game? No i don't think so, you sit there and argue acting all smug lol.

I know for a fact i did my best and helped promote the game. Now... the people crying about VRI messing up, well many of them sat on the fence and didn't pledge not only that, many of them DID pledge and then made trouble.

I think it's cute you think i was put in my place lol. Oh btw i didn't admit i was wrong, i said it didn't help anything and that it wasn't my intent. My intent was to show people trolling went on and it didn't help and most of the people complaining shot themselves in the foot.

If this offends you then i can only assume you took part in the trolling or blame game nonsense that has been going around. Maybe you were one of the people talking about Brads past instead of focusing on the future? I think you are very negative sir and i think you are rather cynical.

I've made PLENTY of videos with thousands of views to "help" I get messages all the time from people thanking me for bringing pantheon to their attention, i've been thanked by Brad himself, what did you do "mate" hmmm?

I think i made my point, if you wish to continue arguing in circles, have at it mate but don't try to tell me i didn't do my part lol because you are SORELY mistaken sir. Now if you are quite finished i've much more positive and productive things to invest my time into than arguing with you, i suggest you go pledge on the official site

P.S. you call it running away, i call it being the bigger man and walking away from a fight. I'm sure you could argue alllll day long buddy. I said what i had to say here folks, agree, disagree, it doesn't really matter. I wish the rest of you the best of luck and i hope you enjoy your time in VG before it is shut down. I know i will.

I guess for me the disappointing part is what seems to be a lack of interest from the communitty towards the kickstarter. Yeah I guess we could talk about what they didn't do right. But as I remember project eternity didn't have a whole lot to show about their game and on the first day of funding they went over a million dollars, and ended with like 4 million.

It seems to me that there isn't as many of us as we had hoped or wanted there to be in terms of regarding this old niche in the mmo market. Maybe the reality of the situation is that there just isn't the demand to make these kinds of games anymore.

i dont know if its b/c of a lack of interest. like it or not, brad and salim don't have such a great track record, which i'm sure had a pretty huge part in vri's difficulty in getting pedges. don't get me wrong, i pledge as soon as the ks page went up, but a lot of the stuff they released took too long.

Oh dear, there does indeed seem to be a very negative view of Pantheon/Brad Mcquaid here and i'm sure that did not help. Also there does seem to be some people interested more in arguing than supporting Pantheon. I heard of the game from your videos that were posted on the EQ1 forums so i thank you for that EQO! The Kickstarter was fine as far as i am concerned but i wish they could have asked for less money to get it going. I seen a lot of trolling going on also arguing in the kickstarter as well so people have to understand that did not help matters. your latest video did not help but i understand why you made it. I am donating $200 or more as soon as i get my taxes in.

I agree, i also noticed some of the people complaining that it was a mess didn't bother to pledge.

My take:

On Kickstarter:
Was it a bit under whelming at the beginning? Yes, and no one not even the biggest fanboi can state day 1 of the kickstarter was anything but lackluster. Was it not bad by end? Yeah, but too little too late. I think the biggest mistake the team did was not put up more info day 1, then release updates and expand that over time. Lack of in game content is not a killer, a kickstarter is to make the game not fund it after it is done. Pathfinder Kickstartered the demo then used that to launch a kickstarter for the game. Maybe better Idea then I gave credit for.

Havign personally met brad, and took part in two very long indepth converatiosn with him at SoE live 2013 set me on a seperate stage, I funded high and quick as everything we discussed was present in Pantheon, another wards he has been hashing this for some time, not just a top of the head idea.

The rerolled troll team was devastating, kilsin is right on feeding them, but man were they good. Once you read that thread on rerolled you actually see they were purposely teaming to get the food, it was toxic and childish, and just like the old FoH days they all spawened from. ow not all rerolled members are like that, but far too many have not grown up from the days they lived in the parents basement. Thank god VR made their foums pay to access, best thing they have ever done, relegate the trolls to the fan sites.

The kickstarter failed for many reasons, anyone who says it was just one is deluding themselves. However failign KS is not that big of a deal. As Kilsin said lessons learned can be more valuable then the funding. and one of the most seccussful kickstarts came after a failed attempt. However crowd funding off their website is a better idea anyway.

End of day, its done, its over, time to move on.


On future:
Well I am excioted that they did not give up, and a big big supporter on the new site. In fact I pledge a lot more now than I did on KS, due to a better model. The communtiy now gathering on the forums there is one of respect and mutal desire for a new game to be made, one we all share a dream for. So far no crap like we saw in KS, one universal truth is, most trolls won't put a dime where their mouth is, so they will not pay to troll. All the better.

End of that day, everyone is allowed their opinion, yes, no, or maybe, on Pantheon. However the amount of personal attacks that beleive in opinion generates is unreal, unfair and unwarranted. But internet ifs gioverned by who can be the biggest child, why I maintain everyones real ID shoudl be front and centre on the internet. Want to be a jerk? fine but put up like a man. Of course 99% of trolls and crap would disappear, I have stated many times nothing worse than a 16yr old boy and the internet when no one knows their true ID.

I am giving the VR team a clean slate, Salim included. IF I am to preach of being an adult, and that I am part of the best most adult and respectful community in MMOs I can't be spouting off about him like a child now can I? I think alot of people who preach here, need ot take a step back, and read what they are saying and maybe actually start living by it themselves then just demanding everyoen else does. I called the kettle black, I realized this, so I mended my issue, and cleaned the slate. This is a very experienced team, they have collectively done some amazing work, they have made their share of mistakes, but who of has not? So tjhere comes a tiem for the adults preaching for everyone else to be an adult, to themsevles act like one.

End of day:
You may choose to support pantheon, not support, or await the games release ot decide then to buy it and play it or not. Each is just as acceptable as the other, and none are the wrong answer if they are right for you individually. No one here, or anywhere has the right to say it is wrong to support or not to support the game for any reason. If one chooses to not support it, then that is their right it is their money and their right to put it where ever they want after they pay their taxes

I have choosen to heavily support Pantheon, because I want too and want what they are purposing to be the next MMO I really land in and play like I did EQ or Vanguard. It may or may not happen, life is full of risks, this one I am willing to take.