Schiller@Telon wrote: EVERY MOB? You can't even turn most KDQ named mobs undead forget trash raid mobs in APW. There is exactly one raid mob at the end game which can be turned undead. And that is not to give a Paladin tanking advantage. It's for book of morfare which benefits the entire raid. I rather carry a pocket bard instead of a pocket necro. But thanks for the offer.
Dravid@Telon wrote: One mob? Karax, Varking, Fengrot, Zaseh, Ataraxis, Belzane (already undead)--I hear it constantly in Mumble "It's Undead!" Don't know why an epic necro main with many years experience would be saying that if it were not true. Maybe he's just joking?
schiller you can refute as many points as you want in your post, but i can still show you how the warrior is inferior in each aspect you point out. for example you forget to mention that cull has an amazing cd of 10 seconds. or ravanging darkness that has a base cd of 40 seconds. skill for skill, warrior endurance costs are not as high but the endurance bar drains just as fast. i have to deal with a 3 minute timer and the skill restores half of what ravaging darkness restores. the only reason why i use the dk is because i've leveled one and am more familiar with the skills compared to a paladin as i've found them a bit too tedious. I really dont want to nitpick particular abilities; my point is with current end game gear/abilities that a warrior has, the class scales very poorly compared to the other two tanks. the adjustments are quite simple and do not require nerfing the other two tanks, yet the class has gone ignored for 3 years. as it stands, there is no raid target where the warrior is the preferred go-to tank for a myriad of reasons.
Schiller@Telon wrote: Karax was the mob I was referring to as the END GAME mob. Shendu, Eyeballs, Varking and Efreeti type mobs -- I can use my undead abilities on them without a necro, don't need them to be turned undead. My Undead abilities allow me to use three more abilities which can contribute upto 10% of my total dmg at best (Vol Anari Chain, Sunburst and epic proc). I can easily do without these. I was discussing end-game tanking which means mobs like I wasn't factoring mobs like Fengrot, Varking. It makes ZERO sense for me to discuss balance against mobs that are X levels below me. PotA Gear is overpowered against level 59 mobs forget level 53. Zaseh -- are you serious ?? I am going to keep my response in check here.
Shal wrote: Scaling is definitely the big issue.I also believe my skills as a Paladin are average i.e. there are many other paladins who if they had access to my gear would probably play a paladin a lot better (being more honest than modest). I also play a little more defensively which means I don't do those crazy one button virtue burn macros. A class like Paladin with all its utilities and survivability still have such a high level of burst dmg compared to a warrior will be hard to balance without scaling back the Paladin. I don't see anything wrong with scaling the Paladin back.
Actually.. I found a couple interesting factoids since Shal posted up here.. and went over them with Miach in game. One.. Srikethrough Chance.. if you have it..... get rid of it. Two. The MODS on your gear show X%. Some are based vs mob level. Some are seemingly based on YOUR level. This is not true. I will refrain from posting too many details until I can investigate it further.. but I definitely found a "problem". As for Schiller/Dravid/anyone replying to his comment about my " IE: A pally can wtfpwnz an undead mob over a warrior, but a warrior would equally be able to take the hits and hold aggro" comment, it has NOTHING to do with Vanguard. None. Nil. Nada. That is a reference to a project I am working on. I have a class system with 64 total classes. There are 16 Fighter, 16 scouts, 16 mages, and 16 healers. From healer/scout/mage/fighter archetypes, it is then broken down into 4,4,4,and 4 as classes, and then each of those are broken down into 4,4,4 and 4 as professions. My balancing set the benchmark at the archetype level. Thus, if you pick a fighter, you and preform that role regardless of your class/profession combo. The classes are balanced vs each other. And then finally the professions are balance against each other within their class (IE a Paladin is balanced vs a Shadowknight, but not against a Ronin or Decimator. All in all it works out like a dream. It is a bit more work to start with, but excludes the "I can't tank Mob_001" stuff. Relating it to Vanguard (forget what any other classes can do for now), A Paladin can then tank Guar, just as easily as a DK or War. In my overall scenario (modding to fit the VG reference), the War would have a slight tactical advantage over the DK or Pal vs Guar.. because Guar is not undead... nor is he "living". Varking, on the other hand, would give a benefit to Pallies, since he is undead. Fengrot would give a benefit to DK's, since he is "living", and thus more susceptible to a DK's manipulation of fear & decay. The actual ABILITY to tank them would be equal across the board. If you removed the vs undead powers from a pally, all 3 would tank Varking equally. Something to chew on.. a tad irrelevant to the discussion at hand... just a clarification that the comment I made there was not referencing VG in any way shape or form.
Shal wrote: Shal, I wasn't referencing the warrior at all--just pointing out that a DKs fabled 'survivability' is entirely situational, as all the skills that make us what we are solo are pretty much useless in a raid situation. Survivability in most raid situations = Pally>>>>>DK>>Warrior I totally agree that the Warrior needs more help than the DK does right now. In fact, the few things we really need right now, (FEAR) the warrior does also--and a good bit more. I have a warrior as well, only lvl 53, but I have been saying forever that the Warrior desperately needs some way to regen endurance, more like what DKs get, at least in the effect. I know what it feels like being able to swing at a mob 4-5 times, then have to stand there getting beat on for 4-5 seconds till you get enough endurance to swing again. Honestly, I don't see any reason not to just drop the refresh of Bloodrage down to 40 seconds, just like a DKs Ravaging Darkness. There may be better solutions, but doing this would take the devs all of one minute to simply reduce the cooldown on Bloodrage. Graye, thanks for the explanation. I was reading your post as you wanted to boost the VG Pallys damage against undead, and boost other tanks against their own types of mobs, which would not be right, as a necro can turn a living mob undead for a Pally, but no one can turn an undead mob to living for a DK or Warrior. Dravid, I didn't say anything about the skills a Paladin currently has, but was reacting to what I thought was an idea being put forth to increase the Pallys damage against undead--see above. When I look at class balance, I don't just look at it for me, or others who can realistically challenge Karax or Shendu, but what it will do for all those who are right behind us and coming along too. The change Graye wasn't talking about (my bad) would have affected all those players too. Moot point, I know, as that was not what he was saying anyway.
The thing really missing is the need for AoE control in endgame. Both in raids and dungeon crawls (if they ever decide to come up with new content). One single raidmob won't do the trick. This is the key issue. Not the advantage of paladin in short duration single target burns but the lack of massive AoE situations in which the other tanks would beat the paladin anyday. Cuz the absolute lack of a paladins AoE control is pretty much an enormous deal (paladin even loses his short dura boost if he switches the target). It just never weights as there is no need for AoE agg management once 50+. I'm in no way saying that tank balance should not be reconsidered. But a focus is to be set on the present endgame situation as current encounters strictly prefer one tankstyle over all others, nullifying any kind of AoE advantage a tank might have.
