Many play because of the depth and variety this mmo offers beyond so many others. 3 spheres to game in, each entertaining in their own way. Now there is the Marketplace which is fine but looking at it closely, seems to be dismantiling some of what makes this game so great. The pride in earning that flying mount through adventure....gone, just buy it now. Crafters working hard in ship building working all the continental quests...ehh just buy it now all 3 types from all 3 continents. Crafters working hard to make bags....now buy speed bags and all variety of bags with huge capacity. You adventured and finally got that full suit of awesome gear and want to show it off....only to see level one characters running around with the appearance version of it. There are other examples to be sure but my point is the marketplace is hurting the crafting sphere and taking some of the joy from adventuring for some of the high point moments for their characters. I'm not asking for the removal of the Marketplace I understand SOE needs to make money of course. However, do this in a more constructive way, not destructive. It's pretty easy and can enhance the game. 1. Provide appearance items NOT tied to reward drops and such 2. If you have to sell ships only the smallest and only one kind 3. If you feel you need to offer mounts don't make so many and not as fast as the rewards in game 4. Gear shouldn't be vastly superior to crafters 5. Offer decorations, or alterations to houses and ships extra storage or ship sail design, etc. That will make people want to craft those things and people want to buy them. 6. Offer character options/unlocks allowing things such as unusual item for class to use or an ability that can be triggered once every 24 game hours. Extra bag per character, quicker recall, extra character per account, etc. The marketplace can be a good profit point for SOE and it can enhance the game at the same time, win/win.
I fully agree. However, it will now never be changed back because, People will often take the path of least work and rely on Mr. VISA to get there which in turn makes money for SOE. I can only hope that what is currently available now is all that will be added, but I anticipate this will not be the case.
Good post- agree that the market should complement, not replace, items that are significant in-game. As much as i love a 60-slot "speed bag", I'd love to see the current approach shifted so that diplo and crafting remain really cool (and viable) adventuring spheres.
People are starting to realize that F2P (i.e. the SC Store) is not part of a long term development plan to revive the game but a short term cash grab to squeeze quick $$ from a game that was on life support that is part of an online portfolio in desperate need of cash. A year from now, if VG has grown and there's been REAL content development, I'll be the first to admit being wrong and eat crow. But based on years of past hitsory and all the indicators so far, F2P is nothing more than a sleight of hand by SoE.
Sagremor wrote: I disagree with your opinion on most things, however, on this occasion I do have to agree with you. They are selling all of the top ingame "achievement" items for relatively little money. Certainly cheap enough that it doesn't take much time to decide. They have a gambling system do encourage us to buy keys for the chests. They have thrown together, at short notice, everything that they can make quick sales on. I don't believe that this was the devs choice... I can't believe for a minute that people who spend so much time building and creating something would then happily go and shred it like that. Therefore, it must be down to truly mediocre and short-sighted managers/decision makers in SOE. Really it is poor decision-making. I can tell you that, as a paying customer, you'd get more money out of me from offering a more reasonable cash shop (more cosmetic/DIFFERENT stuff, not replica raidgear and galleons/griffons). The cash-grab style really makes me want to NOT pay on principle. Sure, some people will spend money, I have bought a few keys myself. You will never earn as much money this way, though, that you would earn by doing it properly. Does it really take that much more time and effort to do it properly?
I agree wholeheartedly. I'm disappointed to see some of these huge, in-game 'achievement' items being sold for next-to-nothing in the cash shop. It seems like a real slap in the face to the vets that worked hard to get them legitimately. I think there's a right way to do a cash shop, and a wrong way, and unfortunately, the wrong way seems to be more profitable. The whole gambling scheme that they have going on in the game now is disappointing as well, not to mention immersion-breaking. "Oh look, I looted a chest and I need a skeleton key that can only be found in the cash shop to open. Fun." I actually saw someone in chat the other day who genuinely didn't know where to get the key, and I'm sure they weren't happy to hear that it was only obtainable through external means with real money - their silence gave that impression anyway. I just think there's a point where you kind of cross the line, you know? Image is an important part for a company afterall, and it doesn't look too great when you appear to be trying to milk your customers for everything they're worth. Anyway, it's not like complaining about it really matters much I suppose. It's unusual for SOE to go back on a decision, and certainly not one that makes them a profit. I can only hope that it's not as grim as Sagremor believes, and that we'll actually see some substantial content added to the game, thanks to the F2P conversion. As it stands now though, I'm inclined to be a bit pessimistic myself.
Several months ago when a leaked internal newsletter from CCP's Eve Online was released and then maybe some things possibly taken out of context / misunderstood regarding RMT shop being implemented, the players blew up. In-game they went to the major trade hub in the game and for hours went shooting at a statue/monument (even though there was no way of destroying it probably or had a huge amount of HP so it barely moved), the forums were full of hate, and others canceled their subscriptions. CCP eventually calmed the fanatics down, clearing up the issue saying they will not have any Pay to Win features (no buying your ships; only cosmetic, etc) and apologized for attempting to push things out when they were not ready (including the Incarna "walking in stations" "beta" captain's quarters that serves no real use right now). As it stands right now, the in-game shop only has appearance clothing for your avatar that only appears in your portrait in chat and the forums, as well as having it on your 3D avatar in the captain's quarters (CCP's vision is to have full roaming of station halls/rooms with bars to hang out in and own, corporation offices/hq to meet in like guild halls I guess, etc). SoE is turning all its games to the FTP model. It isn't just games that are seemingly in need of a cash grab. SoE is not a company like CCP that only has one game, and two others in development (Dust 514 PS2 tie-in to Eve Online's world, and World of Darkness). It doesn't have the same vision/mindset that CCP does. Even Planetside 2 will have a FTP model. I expect EQ Next to have one as well, simply because it is SoE.
I remember seeing the first images from people completing the brand new griffon quest. The pride in getting my griffon. I exited a rift with my griffon and an individual talked to me how awesome it was. We talked at length and before long had a new friend online. The first person in guild able to make a galleon. The work needed, the material. The guild came together to help, events developed for it. The excitement seeing it in harbor. Even just passing another galleon you had to admire the drive it took to make. Going to crafting channel and finding someone to make bags. Gather materials and save gold. Or another guild member who everyone contributed materials for so he/she could make them for others. Now if any of these things are seen and you ask them the simple answer will be "I bought it". How does this NOT hurt the game? Maybe SOE needed to make a market quick and just tossed items they already had in game, easy. But what will be next? The previous free reward furniture, probably. Buy a house or need a guild hall, got one right here for ya. That hard to find diplo card, no problem have them all right here. All this takes away from the game, stop. There are many fine ideas being offered up on multiple threads use them!
Sindon@Seradon wrote: I agree. Problem is SOE no longer does, nor do most Players of MMOs now. The new Players don't want to play a real MMO, nor would they recognize one or like it, they just want to jump on the MMO bandwagon and say they played a MMO when what they really want to play is a console game or a browser game. SOE just wants to accomodate this new generation of Players and make a living and not fade away into obscurity. If you think you can stop the change you are only kidding yourself. The MMO genre we knew and loved is dead and gone my friend. Long live the MMO genre. (That is our cue to exit stage left).
I must mention that the store mounts should not be better then the in game mounts. the only difference might be the level you can use them. with that said "The pride in earning that flying mount through adventure....gone, just buy it now." "You adventured and finally got that full suit of awesome gear and want to show it off....only to see level one characters running around with the appearance version of it." This confuses me. What pride? All I have to do is go to the web get all the stuff the quest walkthrough states, follow the instruction and blamo I have the mount or my full suit of awesomeness. Or you just got lucky on the loot table. So I spent 16.5 hour to get a shadow hound (well that ius what the website says I can do it in). This is a time sink. The only accomplishemnt is that I know how to follow directions. But I do know there are players that will never use a website but I do not diminish thier play or "accomplishment" if I use a quest guide. So why is it if I pay for a mount I diminish the accomplishment of others. for example: I travel by ship almost always. I get a great sense of acomplishment being able to travel overland and water from Qalia to Kojan. Not once does the rift gates diminish that sense of acomplishment because other choose to use it even at level 1. My sense of worth is what I can do not what I can do better then others. I think crafter are hurt the worst through this market. However I most likely would never have never afforded a large ship from them. as I play the game for fun. Not as a job I just do not like grinding for money as I do that in real life. If I was stuck in the same area for a 2 months, with my play schedule that is likely, I would just stop playing. With thestore they allowed my to 1. start my house (all my in game money goes there), 2. get a fast mount, 3. get a ship. so I can explore the world and enjoy it. See places I want to be able to go to explore more. Given this they will easily have me paying for a for gold month after month (and I am now) When I see a level 1 deck out in all store bought things, I think wow I may not have done that but thanks for supporting the game not "Dang every thing I did in this game is meaningless" Now I do fully agree that crafters need some love somehow with store items hapmering thier trade.
cineha wrote: If it were as "Easy" as look up the guide on the internet and follow directions, then Everyone, and I mean everyone would have one, but it isn't. There are parts of it where it requires a full group or More working together well to complete the steps. It's not just as simple as 'follow a guide' or 'oh click here and wham you got it'. What you are describing as a "pay to win" game.. not anything that myself or many many others are interested in playing. And yes before you go off about that, I have tried a couple of those games, no thank you..
cineha wrote: Several issues with your statement. In regard to the major gear rewards and griffon quest line, you can not run alone. There are guides but not one to let you solo it. That means there is a group effort and everyone has a role. And there is pride in knowing you did your part well and you have your reward. And yeah it takes time. Not a grind time sink but effort. Yes my self worth is not tied directly to others but even you have to admit it would sting or atleast disapoint you some to know you worked so hard on a highly respected quest only to see it circumvented. I won't consider every single item from every quest that would be silly and not the intent of this thread. Again consider the effect on the game, yes some will still do the quest but a vast majority will now say "why bother?" I watched and helped guilds who organized and helped others complete that quest thus enhancing a sense of community. The same for ships and bags. People in guild and outside of guild helping gather materials and helping complete quests. Now, just buy it. Some will still craft ships but a huge group will say "why bother?" These same people will buy everything possible and then complain there is nothing else to do....and leave. And that's the point I'm trying to drive home. SOE is hurting this game in their effort to increase funds when the marketplace can be set up in a way that would enhance it and still make money. Look at the threads right here in general discussion full of ideas to draw people into more activities. "Hey look at all the great things I can add to my house/ship" or "I can add this to my character" or "I can get another character slot" or "I can improve my bank". Lots of great ideas that will draw you in to doing more.....not less.
cineha wrote: Perhaps another way to express it is- I'm not mad/ jealous/ whatever of someone because, as OP noted, what he does or doesn't buy in the cash store doesn't affect my enjoyment of the game (huge asterisk here re: crafting items/ products availability via cash store hurting in-game crafting); However, I am disappointed/ peeved-off/ discouraged because the item(s) that represent a significant investment of my time/ energy are no longer as special/ rare/ individual, and these items have been rendered "moot" (overnight), not by other items available through similar effort by as something purchased without regard for or reference to the game lore/world/ etc. As such, I'm p!553d at SOE for creating the situation, not at the other person for using it. And yes, while there are numerous web references and guides available (and I certainly encourage people who are stuck or who want to learn more to use them), as a "sandbox" MMO(rpg) the emphasis has historically been on the journey and discovery which, just as with real life, requires the time-in-grade to achieve a result. Some of the reaction is likely similar to that experienced when a nouveau-riche fleeb moves into the neighborhood by buying a nice, older home, tearing it to the ground, and replacing it with a gigantic eyesore and follows it up with the driveway full of of Ferraris and supermodels. Should he affect my life? No, nothing in my life has really changed. Does it affect my life? You betcha'
This entire argument is one of pure jealousy. If you complete the rather lengthy quests to get the quest mounts, that is your achievement. You did it. The only reason to be unhappy about someone else buying theirs is one of personal jealousy because you care that others look at you as awesome for having completed said quest. And on that note - the flying mounts in the SC shop ARE different from the in-game ones, from what I've seen. If I'm wrong, please correct me on that - I know the rest of the mounts do differ. In no game ever has someone been looked at the same for having bought an equivalent version of something that comes from a difficult in-game accomplishment. It will be no different here.
Flarestar wrote: Oh dear... really? If everyone buys all the stuff then 2 things will happen: A, noone needs to quest so there is noone to quest with and B, people leave because theyre bored because they bought everything. ...and then they close the servers.
Flarestar wrote: Are you serious? I'm at a loss, have you read any of the posts in this thread? Understood the title of it even? It's about how the Marketplace is causing damage and coming up with positive ways for the marketplace to make money and enhance the game instead. To step in and announce its "pure jealousy" is the lowest form of debate and weakest statement trying to declare it a personal agenda informing all what you decided we are feeling. Vanguard is given another chance with this update, another breath of life and I, like others want it to succeed. And while the Marketplace is a fine idea with great opportunity, items being sold are negatively effecting adventuring, crafting and quest lines thus harming the game. Please don't try to turn this thread into some base emotional attack/flame whatever. I am hoping with continued discussion maybe, just maybe a gm will note it, make a comment and possibly realize the potential for harm and good here. Developers do read and you have to believe they may listen and open a discussion on it and even make some changes. There is always hope.
Reality is this was going to happen. SOE needs to make money, thats what they do, just like we all don't work for free, niether do their employees. I have 6 crafters, 5 now over 52, so I am on the rails to be hit by the train. They added everything that made crafting useful, well almost anyway, but there is still some use for crafting. What I hope is, they move forward and expand crafting, like add upgrade recipes for market bought items. maybe even boat upgrades that can be added to either crafted or bought, maybe even cooler better upgraqdes to crafted only boats. The reality is they need to make money, they needed VG to show profit sooner rather then later, thats business, do not like it? tough really. I am not overly happy about it either, but if it funds VG long term, and the game gets expanded? I will live with it. If it all fails? well were not going anywhere anyway so the loss is small. How ever the gain could be great, full time devs, new content, expansions, more raids, new dungeons, new tiers for all spheres. So I say it was worth the try, lets hope it succeeds.
First off I want to say thank you to all those who responed to my question and help my better understand where you are coming from. The one thing I love about this forum has always been that if you ask an honest question with respect you normally get an honest respectful answer. Now I love to support crafters it is something I do. However I have been making good money on pristine jute bags. I sell them for what I think is WAY over priced at 20s. Most on the broker go fro 40s to 1g. Now I am not sure if this is an MMO infalation that caused someone to price this thing I use to sell for 10s price it at 1g but right now I cannot buy most things on the broker house but that is another issue Would it be resonable to allow crafter to make most if not all the items in the shop and then also have the shop sell in game money? Or would that ruin the economy in game? Now I have not thought it through and I just throwing it against the wall to see what sticks.
