Dread Knight

Discussion in 'Protective Fighters' started by ARCHIVED-Filzin, Jul 19, 2012.

  1. Schiller@Telon wrote:
    Hey Schiller,
    The problem is you omitted the costs associated with the abilities in your post about the Paladin abilities along with its restrictions on how to use it. And that presents a one sided view to anyone who doesn't play the class.
    Plus I was also trying to use that to justify on why HI cannot have a cooldown lesser than Zeal due to costs associated with using the ability. But as I mentioned before 10 mins cooldown on HI makes it not very usable.

    Shal wrote:
    Paladins can also use the 2h epic though and we alread have zeal that works similar fashion. So it would be kinda warriors alone in the camp. But basically that's the reason why I am not sure if the current warrior changes as far as threat generation will really help or not. But anyway we will know the answer to that soon enough.
  2. I'd also much rather the 2h paladin epic be removed from the game. Because most of the balance claims here are based upon the 2h epic version of the Paladin.
    I play a 1h/shield Paladin and I find myself having to compete vs well played Dread Knights for most part. DKs have a few rough edges that need to be sorted out. If the developers try to balance dmg output based on the 2h version of the Paladin, you can forget ever trying to balance the warriors with the other two.
  3. arent 2 of the pld abilities on the same timer as one is an upgrade of the other?
  4. Shal wrote:
    Zeal and Righteous Intensity are in the same cooldown and trigger each other's cooldown.
  5. i would have to put myself up against an equally augged/geared pallie to see how i stand... But, i don't really ever have agro issues, i MT everything we killl (Varking and Zodi on down) and the only times i lose agro are to Monks/Druids/Psi's/Sorc's who forget or don't wipe their agro.
    I would LOVE if the refresh on Hatred Incarnate was lowered to about 3 minutes, would make locking agro on name runs a bit easier, atm i use it for T4 names..
    With DK's to get a fear immunity soon i am very happy with where we stand as tanks
    ******PETS: the only thing that annoys me is EVERY time i mount up and dismount i have to respawn my pet, rename it, and recheck the auto-use abilities... and can't auto-use click "Curse of Terror" it will work once, then all other abilities will quit firing until you respawn the pet and click it off auto-use

    .... a side note to Hydrazine: just curious how you are augged... 30k max hit is kinda weak, with a QJ/HI burn i have had Word of Doom hit for 50k - 70k+ and Bane do slightly more around 65k-80k (on mobs weak to spiritual ive hit for 120k/160k w? WoD/Bane)
  6. Uanlarr wrote:
    I usually just take a frenzy to increase my overall fight damage and 30k is just an average number I threw out there since it varies a lot from mob to mob. (I might've put it on the low side of the average to sway some opinion... and Shal, I suggested 2 minutes for HI because if you ask for 4 maybe you will get 5 and if you ask for 2 maybe you will get 3. But you will almost never get exactly what you ask for :)
    Uanlarr, Are you rocking the grave digger or the femur?
    Getting a fear immunity means we can theoretically tank a few extra mobs but will we be able to hold aggro on them? Thats a good question.
    Trying to aoe and hold aggro on parasites from sparkles has been real fun...
  7. Hydrazine wrote:
    if you think about it, its pretty easy to understand why dks have a hard time with the parasites.

    sparkles is a nice model of how tank balance has been in vg for the past few years: OP paladins as main tanks, almost OP dks as backup main tanks, and warriors in the back dealing with all the feces thrown our way.
  8. Shal wrote:
    Come on Shal, you can't be serious man...putting DKs and Op in the same sentence is just ridiculous bud.
    A lot of DKs supported the Warrior changes vocally and through testing and PMs, I am not sure why you are now against DKs, trying to place them in the same OP bucket with Pallies, we need a few fixes and tweaks not to be hated on.
  9. thats why i said almost i'm not hating on dks. in fact i'm considering putting my dk through pota once f2p goes live and i finish off my psi and bard
  10. This is what tanking sparkles is: Beyond 70% you spend every 10 out of 25 seconds stunned due to Shell Shock. Beyond 50% you add topsy turvy to that effect resulting in you being inactive every 15 out of 25 seconds due to shell shock + topsy turvy. Ohh beyond 30% shell shock + topsy turvy + blinding effect which turns your screen black and increases cast time to 500% more than normal including GCD which effectively means you hit something every 5 seconds out of 25 seconds. If you can spam click repair you win Sparkles as a MT (as Filzin and Kep did when I was out on a concert) :p
    Hmm I dunno. I'd gladly give up fear immunity and have AE abilities so that I can actually be active and keep aggro on the mobs protecting my group and healers holding aggro on poop mobs even if they weren't naked Scarlett Johanssons.
  11. Hydrazine wrote:
    I think "balance" is the goal for most people involved in this thread. I hope that everyone is giving accurate feedback, not overblowing the issues in a quest to become OP'd (not directed at anyone, saw the same thing done in the warrior threads, it's human nature i suppose). I figure I am a fairly decent player (at least where DK is concerned) and geared as well as any tank on the server and I can say without hesitation that I cannot generate the same aggro as Dravid (one of the more defensive Paladins I know and a top notch player) or Grumor. I am ok with being a little behind warrior with the fear mechanic being as is, but if fear becomes a thing of the past with future content and recent warrior changes do what I expect then we are back in the same boat.
    As a side note, if tanks are able to totally lock down a mob then game loses a ton of interest to me. Nothing beats having to burn a mob down while managing your aggro. Most dps I know like having to worry about pulling hate, adds to the challenge. It should be a balancing act.
  12. Filzin@Telon wrote:
    Totally agreed with entire post.
    The statement in red is especially important. It should require skill on the part of the tank and the DPS to maintain the tank's aggro.
  13. every encounter presents a risk to the party. The skill of the tank and how he handles the adds will often determine if the party wipes. Sure we have CC but who stops the mob from murdering the CC caster?
    A well played tank no matter the class, can hold his own and keep the party safe even if it means not being at the top of the damage chain. I personally dont want to play a taunt bot. I get a rush whenever a person in the party pulls aggro, now I have to gain it back. Multiple mobs are even more of a challenge. If I keep them alive then I have done my job and the exp will flow.
  14. OK, first let me start by saying thanks you for the fear immunity, its aboutr time tghe masters of fear were immune to its effects...
    Now on to my real point here, now dont get me wrong, i'm not calling for a nerf of warriors, they needed to be bumped up, but now i'm getting RIPPED off my epic/t3 DK. thats not right: "hey you're now immune to fear effects, but will never hold agro"
    Shouldnt take much to even us out: Increase our hate dots to be online with the warior ones, DKs are around 3-5k over 24s, warriors are like 12k hate over the same time frame... which is comepletely TARDED, especially considering warriors get a 45% hate increase in defensive compared to the other tanks 40%
  15. Uanlarr wrote:
    Yeah, I think the tanks are getting very close to the best balance we have seen in a very long time--maybe ever. Still, I agree that DKs are still just a touch behind the other two.
    As one thing DKs always have struggled with--snap aggro could be improved by reducing the time frame on Torture instead of increasing the hate component by much. Make the hate component on Torture around 5-6k and make it over 12 seconds instead of over 24 seconds. Reduce the cooldown of Hatred Incarnate from 10 minutes to 3-4 minute range. With just those two changes, I think we would have the best tank balance the game has seen to date.
  16. Alt warriors keeping aggro over me. Awesome job, thanks a lot for all your tireless research and data collection before you start changing classes. I don't even care to log in anymore, I do it out of an obligation to my guildmates. Thanks for making the DK class irrelevant. Unbelievable.
  17. Filzin@Telon wrote:
    I couldn't even hold aggro on my Epic DK over a returning Warrior half as geared as me...I was throwing everything i had at the mob too, more for pride after being teased for being a DK and I was pretty dumbfounded when i couldn't even get it off him.
    No force Taunts were used at all by either of us.
    Don't get me wrong either, I am glad Warriors got a boost, they needed it.
    DK's also need a boost, as now we are bottom of the food chain and the new "Warrior" tank...
    We also still have pet issues and pet ability issues now working correctly or at all.
    Has Graye put forward his list of needed changes yet? Might have to grab him by email if someone has it due to some forum issues ;)
  18. It's pretty clear the warrior changes were an untested (though badly needed) course correction. I would like to see DKs get a well tested overhaul that preserves the flavor of the class and makes their hate potential competitive.
  19. Realmoe wrote:
    In Vanguard the tank holds hate by the grace, skill and judgement of the dps quite often. One druid can pull a mob off the tank whenever it wants to. Not even a question. It is impossible for a tank to "lock-down" a mob completely in this game. You have to work together as a group and know not to spam your biggest dps rotation at all times.
    This is the way it should be, imho. The tank and healer should not be alone in the group in being required to have the skills to keep everyone alive.
    Starfall, btw, is the druid ability that can pull, pretty much, anytime it is cast. Higher levels this may change but in the leveling curve it is what it is.
  20. I agree... I've played a DK since 4/2007 and when I logged in today it was awful. Hardly as much aggro as when I left the game. Torture needs more hate, HI needs to be on a shorter cycle we need snap hate. Period... if you want old timers to not only come back and test the waters these issues must be addressed. Ask any of the other classes in a raid and they will say the best tanks keep everyone alive. DK's need the tools to do so. The devs need to go back to what the DK is all about. Using dark magic and fear... to me that means like the dot of a necro deal damage... our dots should deal a ton of hate and be on shorter timer- or - have no global cooldown. Sounds odd but how about leaving everything as is and revisiting our spells? How about a new spell that deals awesome hate outside of a global cooldown...? Something that could help with snap aggro. Makes more sense to add a new single/multi npc dot with significant hate than to constantly tweak the old mold.

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