Before getting into what we are proposing to change, let’s take a minute and talk about what we feel is wrong with the system in its current form. Currently, it is very difficult for players to identify which of their abilities and items will stack with each other. As developers, it is also difficult and very time consuming to create abilities and items while checking against all of the rules currently in place. Our goal with these changes is to simplify the buff stacking system so that the system can be understood without elaborate explanations. With a simplified stacking system the development team would also be able to safely remove the various stat caps that are limiting our ability to give item and buff progression with future content. Now for the meat and potatoes, let’s discuss what changes we are looking at implementing. · Stacking rules for player buffs will be that you receive the benefit from the best buff only. · Stacking rules from Civics and EEs will be that they ALWAYS stack. · Player buffs will be increased to compensate for the inherit nerf in the change of stacking rules. · The player buffs will be re-evaluated and may see design changes with the new stacking rules in mind. The above changes would provide the following: · Classes are easier to balance and all classes are guaranteed to be valuable assets to a group. · Player power will be mostly unaffected, and in most cases, improve player power for small groups and solo players. · Stacking rules are clear, easy to understand, and entirely player-facing. · The limits of the system are defined by the system, rather than an arbitrary ‘cap’, which will increase the design potential for progression. · The system can be easily built upon to add new features. To better explain what we are trying to do, let’s look at the example below: Old System - Queck’s Class Buffs Buff 1 +25 STR Buff 2 +500 HP Buff 3 +30 INT Rahtiz’s Class Buffs Buff 1 +10 STR Buff 2 +100 HP Buff 3 +40 Int Tloch14’s Class Buffs Buff 1 +40 STR Buff 2 +250 HP Buff 3 +20 INT Total Stats Granted under current System assuming that all buffs stacked +75 STR (25+10+40) +850 HP (500+250+100) +90 INT (30+40+20) New System - Queck’s Class Buff +50 STR +850 HP +60 INT Rahtiz’s Class Buff +30 STR +250 HP +90 INT Tloch14’s Class Buff +75 STR +500 HP +30 INT Total Stats given under the new system will still be the same without any stat stacking 75 STR granted by Tloch14’s Buff 850 HP Granted by Queck’s Buff 90 INT Granted by Rahtiz’s Buff
Please feel free to ask any and all questions you have about this as it probably is a lot to take in at once.
One problem I see with this are self buffs, like the cleric Armor of Faith and the shaman form buffs. These are supposed to stack with the other player buffs. Armor of Faith is like a mini Titanic Reverence but just for the cleric. Given the new system none of the Armor of Faith stats would stack with Titanic Reverence, making it a useless buff. Almost every class has self buffs that stack with everything else. Also I thought this was how the system already worked except for self buffs and certain other buffs that ignored stacking rules. I know the int/wis buff that clerics get currently doesn't stack with the psi int/wis buff because the psi buff is more powerful.
two comments. 1. nice to see a clearly illustrated example of what you are trying to do. 2. anticipate some real complexity to determine which classes buffs need to be enhanced and by how much, since group / raid makeup varies wildly
You are correct baldur, his example of the current situation is not accurate. Ive worked through countless number crunches in vanguard, even buff stacking, but the "why" has eluded me when it comes to player buff stacking, ive just accepted that some stack some dont. Example: disciple buffs 98 War cleric buffs 112 str (only if u use the old buff) bear shaman 98 str Paladin 42 str Bear shaman and disciple dont stack. War cleric stacks for like 40 points with disc / shaman. disc/shaman stack with paladin. but cleric + disc doesnt stack with the paladin. This example is old though, and i just recalled it from testing 2 years ago. Its a big mess and it definitely needs changing Concerns / questions What happens to self buffs? do they always stack with all? In combat buffs like cleric / paladin has, will stack with the player 1 hour buffs? What happens to group aura's ie: rogue aura + disc inner light + warrior lock and load. They should stack, but currently don't, will they stack now? Stances should always stack with eveything correct ? There is currently a 25% crit strike cap from buffs, say you are a disciple get 10% crit from stance 7% from shaman, 8+5 from civics, Will this actually yield 30% crit in the new system ? Will the flat damage cap be removed? If so will it also fall under the "biggest counts" rule? say cleric +35 flat damage will get overruled by monk jin surge ? 65 str from meat, now stacks with all, will this change? I can go on like this forever tbh, ill think of more tomorrow, there are so many variables in this game when it comes to buff stacking... needs to be changed but i forsee a lot of class abilities losing their use. Have you considered making the 1 hour player casted buffs group/raid aura's ? This would take away the outside buffing, and give more incentive to creating balanced groups. Prevent a ton of duo boxing, group boxing and the like.
Just want to emphasize The impact of buffs on everything. If im fully buffed, i can solo everything in bod. if im unbuffed / self buffed the 5 dot elementals 2 shot me in 10 secs. An buffed group can do a sod named run in 1 hour or less. unbuffed that time would probabaly be double. I think its fair to say buffs double someone's power, and thats a modest estimate.
How does this effect short term buffs? Are they unaffected or are they going to fall under this new system?
Aka, is quickening jolt still going to stack with sorc amplify destruction, and warior +8s spell/ranged damage? or will the +100% damage from QJ overwrite all the others?
What about self buffs? They ought to always stack also IMHO. This is a pretty bug nerf to people trying content.. I sure hope you can balance the buff bonuses properly. Oh.. Necro meat.. that'll be the only HP buff? Cause none of the others will touch it. Hmm.. yeah.. how about broken cleric buffs? Preservation Clerics aren't doling out their HP bonus with their lvl 55 buff... and haven't since it went live. Yay for more speed nerfs. Oh.. hrmm.. SC potions useless for many also then. Did anyone really think this all through? Just because it looks good on paper, doesn't mean it translates well. Or maybe all of the information isn't presented here?
Although there will always be edge cases we aim to keep the self buffs function as closely as they have been. As for being a major nerf, if you look at the example you can see that each stat of the new buffs are greater than they were before the changes. At no point in this revamp of sorts are we attempting to reduce player power.
Once this is ready to get to test cast all of your buffs. Log onto test do the same. If anything is lower its a bug flat out. In fact since we won't have to juggle what buffs stack with what some will be higher. Like if you currently have two STR buffs one +15 and one +25 on items you would actually gain 15 STR as they will both stack. Activated abilities on items will follow the same rules as EE and will always give you buffs. Self buffs will be powered up as well. Short term buffs. If currently you could get 100 STR from all long terms and 500 from a short term for a total of 600 short term 100 long. The new system you would still get the 100 STR from all long term buffs and the Short term buff would not stack but instead would give 600. Same short term amount same long term amount.
I actually quite like the direction it is taking, will need lots of test of course as the devils lies in details. So to summarize : * long term : only best applies * short term : only best applies, overrides long term buffs but will be increased in power to get the same result as now * self buff : ? * Civics : stacks with all * Equipped Effect : stacks with all I have a question about bard song. In what category do they fall and how will they stacks with the others buffs ?
part of what I see happening here will be a change in how you build groups and raids, Suddenly certain classes will be preferred over others because they carry the better buffs. I am not saying its the wrong thing to do, I am just saying that you cannot use the math of the changes to say everything will be equaled out in the end. It wont. This will change gameplay and the desirability of certain classes. I am also confused about what happens to buffs that get overwritten . I realize we will all have to learn a new way to determine if we are fully buffed instead of just looking for the familiar icons and/or counting them on our buff bar. lastly, will this change ultimately help fix the broken set bonuses? Will it facilitate bringing our clickie items back to a state of usefulness?
What about the new equiped effects that proc a 10 second buff? do they count as buff or as EE ? A key feature of bard songs has always been that hey stack with (mostly) all. if this changed we might not see 4 bards ina raid anymore Edit: what about lore stones and KDQ passive? what catogory do they fall under?
I just got a sinking feeling that this will turn into another clickie disaster where things that are seemingly unrelated will now impact each other in unexpected ways making more things useless because they get crammed into a category. I also sense some new issues because the retuning of the buffs to offset the stacking loss at some point has to assume that certain classes will always be there to get the equivalent value from the previous buffing combos. Lets be clear here, every raid / group doesn't have a cleric, or a druid or a shammy, etc. This also hints at new content being dependent on having the "right" classes in the mix for a chance at success. I am increasingly uncomfortable with where all this is going given the recent runspeed debacle. Lets be real sure that the simplification doesn't simply create a new Vanguard where all classes are equal , or where certain classes are required for success
This is what I more concerned about. I couldn't really care less if i'm going to lose 100 Int or something stupid because some stat buffs are changed. I want to know what is going to happen with short term %based damage buffs and the like. Currently when I burn on my sorc I have an epic proc 5%, bulkwark 10%, Amp 50%, destruction proc 50%, QJ 100%, and a whole lot of other things. If under the new system, I am only going to get the 100% from QJ then thats the end for me and I imagine a ton of others.
I dont know, from looking at your chart i get the feeling of class dependancy in a bad way . I dont feel your imbracing each charcters spell set. if susy cast seduction which gives 40 int 400hp and 10 st and doug cast doughnuts that give 500hp 15 st 10 dex and johhny cast mental madness that gives 90 intel nothing that susy cast stacked cause they was something better, making her spell completly and utterly useless. and out of 3 buffs we get 90 intel 500 hp 15st 10 dex. (that doesnt seem great) verses 120 intel 900hp 25 st 10 dex. 3 people(which should reflect the buffage of a group) in this senario one completly lost their spell cause aspects of others spells over ride them. just dont like it But the bigger picture im worried about expecially as a Dk, I really dont have any buffs i have inspirationals as a human charcter (that i dont believe are working currently) but i have self buffs that are dealing with a combative chain. (except for the intel and str buff i have that last for 5 minutes) these buffs stay up for 5 minutes. In this case one of them raises my ac and hp and another raises my damage. would those buffs stack with these other buffs? Cause that is my worry is that they wont cause they do not bring enough ac or hp to really offset some one elses buffs. How does your mechanic allow for this? also another stacking question why not allow players abilities to stack.. why does it only have to take the highest stats from these spells.
My only worry is that this is a huge change and will take some major testing to get right. Self buffs, stances, finisher buffs, and buffs from EEs and activated abilities on items should all stack. If a classes buff can get overwritten in every stat by another classes buff then that buff is worthless. The disciples buff is close to that now. It doesn't sound easy to balance it all to me, and hopefully plays out on the test server for awhile.
Not only does it make it worthless, but just think off all the in game money people had to shell out to get their post 50+ spells. some 70g-1p per spell and make it worthless, no amount of double faction or exp weekend can replace that cause its just messed up on another level. same reasoning with the store bought items that gave the speed buff, people are just at a loss for that item that they bought. Its one of the main reasons i quit playing planet side 2. they had a bad habbit of selling a item then nerfing it 2-3 weeks later. and then would bring out another item that had slightly better stats than the one that was recenhtly nerfed. that game is dead and will never come back cause of that. if not carefull what few player base it has will eventually leave cause of the same issues.
This does not bode well for the future of Vanguard. It sounds convoluted, and overly complex in the name of "Simplification". While it's easy to see the obvious problems (Suzie's buff no longer giving any effect whatsoever because of all components being overwritten), there are quite a few problems that will come up and thrust the current game balance and systems into a downward spiral. Have you considered mobs that strip buffs and the effect this will have on those encounters? Have you considered mobs that were designed with Civic buffs in mind as opposed to the new "Screw it no civvies in this fight" mentality? How about player hit point counts plumetting from 20k to about 14k because of being unable to stack shaman/titanic/constructs augmentation and necromancer Depravity? What effect will this have on current raid encounters? What about endowment of life that applies a buff for 1.2k HPs or so? Is that now useless because it will overwrite existing and thus have little to no effect on the defensive target? If you increase endowment of life to 3.5k or so in order to keep it in line with where you're trying to take this - what does that mean to the solo disciples who now have an insanely large buffer with a three button combo? What you're trying to do has ramifications far beyond the scope of the obvious and any response of "We've already thought about them all" would be a flat out lie. You're talking exponentially compounding issues unless you scrap all buffs the way they are, redesign from the ground up, and release the game as "Vanguard Reborn" or some crap where all existing strats fly out of the window. How's that going to affect player retention? How about the months of time trying to get it right by wading through the ocean of inconsistencies this is going to bring up instead of revamping from the ground? I'd hate to be the harbinger of doom - but if I'm understanding what you have planned I can only /facepalm. Give me a day and a half. There's got to be a better proposal than this. Maybe it would help if you just came out and stated what problem you're trying to solve with this. Is it the capping issue? Is is stacking rules? Is it both?
