Tank Balance

Discussion in 'Protective Fighters' started by Schiller, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. Dirkin Active Member

    Don't worry, having a worthless hate chain is pretty much the truth across the board.
    Nejibana likes this.
  2. Filzin Well-Known Member

    Warriors seemed pretty good, but of course everything looks better from the back of the pack.
    Kilsin likes this.
  3. Dirkin Active Member

    It does what it says it does, but there's not much reason to ever use it other than building hate on a mezzed mob.
    Nejibana likes this.
  4. Moorgard Developer

    We've been discussing the points raised about DK hate generation, and are taking a look at making a few changes to improve their ability to gain aggro at the start of a fight and hold it more reliably. We'll try these tweaks out on Test server, so look for a post from Ceythos to help him test them out.
    Kilsin and Hydrazine like this.
  5. Hydrazine Member

    Awesome news. Cant wait to test.
  6. Kilsin Well-Known Member

    Thanks Moorgard, that is very good news indeed! :)
  7. Ceythos Developer

    What's coming to Test server (not there yet):

    Hatred Incarnate's reuse timer has been reduced to 3 minutes.
    Torture's hate amount has been increased (to slightly more than double its current values).
    The Word of Doom line now adds hate equal to approx half of the damage dealt by it.
    The Cull line of abilities now do slightly more than double their original damage values (they still return 100% of the damage done as a lifetap).

    I'll post a follow-up in a bit on the Test server forums when these changes are available. If you can round up a few of your brothers and sisters in arms and a few dps classes to test the changes out a bit when they're available, that'd be greatly appreciated :)
    Kilsin likes this.
  8. Kilsin Well-Known Member

    Thanks Ceythos, much appreciated :)

    I will jump on with some Reverence members and hopefully our MT Pally when you put it up and give it a work out :)

    Any chance of throwing a dummy up in Khal too just for parsing data with the damage increase please?
  9. Ceythos Developer

    I'll toss a field of them out near the Rift Keeper once it's available ;)
    Kilsin likes this.
  10. Ceythos Developer

    The ability changes should be available on Test now. I've placed a bunch of the test dummies near the rift stone to help with testing purposes.
    Kilsin likes this.
  11. Graye Well-Known Member

    That was done by Ikik because he wasn't authorized to make class alterations but, he still wanted to meet the requests/desires of warriors in regards to invuln.
  12. Violet Active Member

    Just please make sure to test all 3 tanks aggro generation and make it exactly the same. All tanks can have different flavor and abilities, but aggro generation must be exactly the same. Make one tank class best at aggro and other two will have to sit out/quit/reroll.
  13. Seems to me that Warriors should be the balance between AE/single target aggro but need more direct support from other classes(healing), Paladins should be the single target boss tank expert with their support abilities, and DKs should be the masters of AE tanking by being able to grab targets a paladin has trouble keeping in addition to the boss and having support abilities to lower the support classes chosen to monitor them doing that duty...
  14. Fartalot New Member

    This is more or less how it should be (devs can work on it) and I would change a bit more :
    - Paladin should not be able to use 2H weapons at all (or with some major drawback)
    - DK´s are coming around pretty nicely now (some more force taunts and AoE mabe)
    -Warrior should have it all, great Taunts/Hate gen and AoE etc

    The main reason would be: Soloing a warrior compared to a Paladin or DK is a joke. The reward for leveling a warrior to 55 (well yes I know, some folks never solo) is next to nothing as you would have had a much easier time with a Paladin or a Dread Knight. Warriors should be THE tank.
  15. Violet Active Member

    I agree, currently warriors are behind the other two now that DK class was fixed. I'd like it something like this:

    Warrior - lowest utility, highest dps (maybe 80%ish of dps classes). Worst solo tank (worst solo class too at the moment). A way might be to increase pure DPS abilities to both war him-herself and group buffs. Also some love for soloers.
    Paladin - highest utility, lowest dps (decent soloer but not as good as DK)
    DreadKnight - kind of in between, solo god amongst tanks, one of the top soloers amongst all classes. Medium utility, behind PAL but ahead of WAR.

    On the other hand make sure ALL 3 tanks produce exactly the same aggro and tank exactly the same - take same damage being evenly geared.
  16. Karii Well-Known Member

    but where then is the variety?
    Kilsin likes this.
  17. Tralyan Active Member

    'Fraid that, even as a Warrior, I'd have to agree with this. There is something to be said about being the underdog. Right now, Warrior is one of the least played classes, and I like it that way. And while their solo game has always been lacking, if their tanking game starts getting behind the other two tank staples, I'd be ok with that. I'd be OK with being successful at a character that others are too hesitant to pick up due to a class "imbalance".

    I also realize, however, that other people don't feel that way. So, barring that, I still think that the team could just think of 3 new and original ways for each tank to generate aggro. Something unique to the tank. Threat Leeches, threat transfers, gambit system, force taunts, other forms of aggro thrown in the mix. I realize that each class has their own play-style as it is, in a sense - 2H, 1H/shield/Dual - And thats great, but I don't see a huge difference in HOW they generate aggro, if that makes sense. And that is one way to create variety in between tanks.
    Koralith likes this.
  18. Schiller Well-Known Member

    Sorry, but there should be no such thing as "THE tank." One class having innate abilities that make it superior to all others is something many of us have been fighting against for a long time, and we are getting to the point where we need to be. The ability to solo a bit better than another class should never be a reason to make a tank class inferior at doing their job. Who would bother to level a class if they knew they would be (g i m p) at the end, no matter how much easier it was to solo their way there?

    You get "the reward" for levelling a character all along the way. It is called fun, loot, and friendship. This is a group game, with some content that can be soloed. That may seem quaint to some today, but we like it that way. In Vanguard, no class is some kind of "Hulk" or "Superman" who can tear down a whole city single-handedly, and we like it that way too.

    And yes, I do also play warriors (currently 20, 50 and 53) and yes, they can solo.
  19. Kilsin Well-Known Member

    Stating Warriors are at the bottom of the list after a very minor DK update is ridiculous and you know it.

    A lot of this comes down to the player Anastik. Having trouble tanking or keeping aggro is not a reason to call on other classes to be "equalled out".

    I know a few Warriors that are excellent tanks and put some DKs and Pallies to shame, changing all tank classes to be identical just to suit a few lessor skilled tanks will do more harm to the game than good.

    I think the Devs have done a great job trying to balance the tanks with DK and Warrior...Pally is just too OP as it stands with a third epic that is a two hander, it should be removed or make VP useless if a two hander is being held.
    Ghostchild and Schiller like this.
  20. Violet Active Member

    Variety is in utility every tank brings to the table. Make one tank best at tanking and/or generating aggro, and other 2 instantly become obsolete. This is why all 3 must be identical in terms of taking damage and aggro generation (given same gear/stats).

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